Bouncing an idea for a snare strainer off you

My father, who invented a thing or 2, would always tell me that a patent wasn't worth the paper it was written on, because if it really is a good and new idea, it will be copied, and then you have to fork out a lot of dough to defend it in court cases. He is a pessimist though.

What's to stop me from manufacturing and marketing and getting my idea in music stores without the patent? Because patent or not, it will be copied, (assuming it's a valid idea, and I think it is) so what's the downside to side stepping the whole patent fiasco? You don't need a patent put a drum product on the market, right?
 
Larry a couple of things to keep in mind

-Litigation is after other things (like negotiating a license) have failed a lot of that goes on, even adversarialy without ever seeing court.
Is court expensive? yup for both sides, and it can be way worse for the infringer, they are not only risking court costs, but also damages - and if the infringement is shown to be willful - treble damages

There are couple of downsides (one is with the patenting itself, the other is with searching prior patents)

-the obvious, of course, is that someone can legally copy your invention as it's not your invention (in the sense of property) -- and if you truly feel "if it's a good idea, it'll be appropriated" then it comes down to the math of if you can recoup your costs and make a decent ROI in that environment.

-without a decent search through prior patents, it's conceivable that you could be infringing someone else's patent
.
 
Jim, what if I don't care if it is copied? I stiil have the "original and best" marketing card to play.
It's not like I need to corner the market, just get it out there and make some dough, so I don't have to risk my body being an electrician. Assuming I don't infringe on anybodys patent, is this still not "allowed?"
 
Jim, what if I don't care if it is copied? I stiil have the "original and best" marketing card to play.

If you don't care that it's copied - then go right ahead (just make sure you really for really real don't care if it's copied)
how much first mover advantage you'll get is just up for speculation - (esp as a small entity w/o brand recognition, market and manu paths already established, etc.)

It's even possible that a manu could beat you to market (or even just popular market) with your own invention (if they already have the manufacturing and marketing power in place)
or that a manu you are working with simply starts making your invention by itself...remember, you won't own it.


It's not like I need to corner the market, just get it out there and make some dough,


yup, that's the question, will you make that ROI? - and that can be a tough one even without competitors who (without IP protection) can just straight lift your invention

Assuming I don't infringe on anybodys patent, is this still not "allowed?"

totally allowed, the invention simply becomes part of the public domain and anyone can use it

so I don't have to risk my body being an electrician.

That's the rub - will you make enough of an ROI over a long enough term to warrant leaving your career.

and be very very careful here, it's way common for the small inventor to see their invention as their "ticket out" (if not riches, then retirement, or at least establishing a biz based on it) and start thinking emotionally -- that can tend to make the evaluation get optimistic -- risks and costs get evaluated low, potential can get evaluated a little high
 
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Thanks Jim for the sound advice.
I would not stop my business to develop a product, I would do it concurrently. If it took off, I'd reevaluate.
I could design it in such a way that no one manufacturer made the entire unit, and I would assemble it, (for starters)
If I held a patent, the idea could still be copied and manufactured with a different design, is this true?
 
Thanks Jim for the sound advice.

Well, sound or not - I'm glad it's being taken in the spirit offered


I could design it in such a way that no one manufacturer made the entire unit, and I would assemble it, (for starters)


separating the manufacturing isn't necessarily going to be great protection - helpful, possibly.
While just direct manufacture (and some of that may be controllable contractually, you prob won't have much pull and some of the emerging manufacturing nations have a lot of corporate defectorship that causes design crosstalk) is a pretty blantant one
If the other parts are relatively standard (which ould keep costs lower) or are trivial in their manufacture - the manu could undercut you (they are in the manu biz after all)

If I held a patent, the idea could still be copied and manufactured with a different design, is this true?

Well, yes and no

yes, for a crappy patent


a quick technical distinction
patents do not protect ideas, they protect inventions (which has to be more than an idea..it has to be "enabled" - it has to have the operating principles sussed out)

Likewise, a good patent does not just protect a single specific design (there are design patents, but that's a different beast if you are talking about something useful as opposed to ornamental).
A patent is meant to cover the "invention" - basically what is the new "cool thing about it" and express that in the general (so that various ways of implementing the invention are also covered)

Now, that's where it can get tricky - to make sure you are writing the app suitably abstract to give your coverage breadth, but to make your invention clear and solid

Often, the engineering team will tend to be thinking about the engineering and OVERspecifiy (b/c they are working on the development - essentially an EMBODIMENT of the invention. So they see it in those terms). So there's often times a back and forth with someone working on the patent side to get it. generalized to what the invention is.
[it's sort of like the Platonic ideals]

now, if patent is written too closely to one specific design - then, yeah design around is much more likely. If the patent s written to be suitably broad, then design around becomes much much harder

When looking at patents, you'll see all the various parts (abstract, background, drawings, etc) all that good stuff is to support the claims section. The claims are really where you spell out what you say your invention actually is.
That's not to say the spec isn't important (it's used to clarify what the claims are talking about and if there is a question about the claims then the spec may wind up putting a spin on the claims).
so, when you look at a patent and see one of the figures - don't just go "oh, mine doesn't look anything like that" or "oh use a chain instead of gears" -- the patent may cover that as well

I would not stop my business to develop a product, I would do it concurrently. If it took off, I'd reevaluate.

My concern there isn't so much you dropping your job for this (though that is often the motivation -- the dream moving the project forward for small inventors), but that, being emotionally invested in the possibilities can skew the numbers optimistically "oh, getting a manufacturing contract won't be too tough, there's definitely a market for this, once I get my foot in the door I'll have some cache as the original, it'll only take x years to get steam" -- or whatever

I mean since you are looking at ROI and are cost sensitive, I just want to mention that so you can remember to assess the risks and costs honestly

FWIW - even for large entities this can happen --some teams like marketing and upper management can get excited and optimistic then control operations like QA, can take it in the booty - "why do you want us to fail?!?"

It's sort of similar to the "an atty who represents himself has a fool for a client"
 
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to be honest, the est that attys will require $10,000-$40,000 up front isn't totally accurate either (I work in IP myself, father was a patent atty, wife is a pat atty)

It certainly CAN run up into (and wouldn't be unusual, but it doesn't have to) that depending on complexity, but it doesn't have to and it's generally not up front (we'll bill ya just like anyone else :D ) - there can be sliding scales, some firms even have the the attys to do a couple of pro-bono apps a year for small entities.

This was actually told to me by a patent attorney that most patent attorneys want the money up front.

[I'm actually not shocked that non-pat attys were stunned - patent law is the only fed certified specialty in US law - it's a whole different bar, you have to be a recognized engineer as well as an atty - your typical atty just isn't qualified... literally. Hell, patent appeals is one of the big reasons the fed circuit was established - to handle the special needs of patent and international appeals]

Working with the language was an adventure in itself! As I worked on mine, I kept thinking in the terminology used, even when I was away from the work and having nothing to do with the project.


One caveat with inventor written patents - getting a patent granted is only part of the battle


[for the last 15 years or so, I feel (just opinion here) there has been kind of a trend for examiners to punt and grant and let litigation sort it out - and I think we are seeing some fallout from that in cases such as Bilski]

This is going to be doubtful in my case. The examiner was extremely thorough and there was quite a bit of going back and forth.


A couple things can happen post-grant that can get in the way
-there is mechanism for re-exam (for a number of reasons)
-if claim construction isn't rock solid, a motivated party may be able to "crack the claims" (design around or effectively show a difference in their embodiment)

Sadly, I've seen both happen to small inventors
last year, I've seen poor claim construction in a drum related patent that required filing a CIP to undig that particular hole

Come to think of it, this year I also saw a petition for re-exam by inventor!! b/c there was some problems in the claim structure that left him exposed (not drum stuff)


Larry - I'd suggest the absolute first thing to do is keep development notes and have them signed and witnessed ("read and understood" is the classic).
USA is a first-to-invent not first-to-file country (as usual, we're kind of the hold-out on some stuff)
It's not meant as any sort of bulletproof anything - it's best practices routine that allows for supporting evidence.

From there I would to, at least, a casual prior art search through the USPTO (or google patent search) to get an idea of what's around
CAVEAT - a prior art search (esp if limited to the USPTO, esp if done by an inexperienced guy - but still always) is pessimistic -- it can tell you if there are prior inventions that could knock you out, BUT not getting a hit is NOT an "all clear" by any means.
but "I haven't seen it on the market" - the mantra of the small inventor - just isn't good enough.
There are a lot of inventions that haven't seen the light of (the market) day for a variety of reasons

Never stated anything to the contrary on any of this. However, The US is currently considering becoming a "First to File" country. Also, I would rather see you go through at tleast getting some sort of protection before you devulge your idea for the whole world to see. It is doubtful that most people would knock you off until they saw some potential for profit. That was the intent of my post.



Mike

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This was actually told to me by a patent attorney that most patent attorneys want the money up front.

Advance Fee Deposit (the new-school word for "retainer") just depends on the client and the atty - basically like any biz -- general contractors, etc it just varies

I've never been stiffed, I know the wife has



Working with the language was an adventure in itself! As I worked on mine, I kept thinking in the terminology used, even when I was away from the work and having nothing to do with the project.


yup, it's high precision stuff terminology, structure, exact grammar
I had one (lit support) case where there was a question if a term was used as an adverb or participal




This is going to be doubtful in my case. The examiner was extremely thorough and there was quite a bit of going back and forth.


It may very well be doubtful in your single case - couldn't tell ya.
I'm speaking more about the whole body of patent prosecution.
Office actions are pretty much more the rule than the exception - there usually is a bunch of back and forth.




Never stated anything to the contrary on any of this.

never said you did

However, The US is currently considering becoming a "First to File" country.

yup, it may come to pass, but we ain't there yet.
Tthe push has been around since abt 95 since GATT
and we'll probably be looking at new post-grant opposition stuff to balance.



Also, I would rather see you go through at least getting some sort of protection before you devulge your idea for the whole world to see. It is doubtful that most people would knock you off until they saw some potential for profit. That was the intent of my post.

we're actually on the same wavelength there ( at least that it's a wise option to explore)

much of what I was talking about was pre-disclosure practices

I think the big thing is we are all on Larry's side and doing what we can for him
 
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I'll probably end up making one for myself anyway, it's not that complicated, really.

But I run the risk of theft of the idea. But it's not like I play high profile gigs.

Does anyone know how much a patent search costs? How do I do one w/o a lawyer?
 
It sounds like you're trying to recreate the Dyna-sonic. The Dyna has a screw to put tension on the wires, but the adjustment range is limited. The beauty of the Dyna is that the cords connected to the throw-off are connected to the frame, not the wires, so no matter how hard you cranked up the strainer, the tension doesn't choke the wires; They are still free to buzz unimpeded.

Just a note, The balance point of the Dynasonic was the difference between the tension on the wires being just right in the frame, and the frame being tensioned just right by the throw off to just kiss the snare side head. Cranking the Dynasonic throw did not give you more snare sound.......it only succeded in caving in the brass shell at the throw off mounting point.
 
Larry, since it's a pretty simple device and it sound like maybe you are still at the point of working it out

i'd suggest as an initial step doing a casual search yourself - like you were thinking - just to get a lay of the land (it's not going to be a slam dunk "it's not out there", but it can let you know if it definitely alredy exists -- and it lets you get an idea of what's out there...maybe you will find something similar that you have to be careful about as you move forward)

Thankfully these days the USPTO has electronic searching (and as someone mentioned before google also has a specific patent search engine using using the USPTO records) -- [used to be you had to hire a firm or go to DC and wade through card catalogs, then they had a CD and microfilm system at libraries that was always about 6 months behind -- ugh]

now reading patents can take a little getting used to, I'd suggest just grabbing a couple short ones and reading through them to get used to the format.

There are some things to keep in mind during a search in terms of search strategy (stuff like looking at prior are cited in a patent in the background, going outside your inventions classification...a pedal system might for instance might not be, specifically, a drum pedal) - but I'd first suggest (As someone mentioned) just starting with keyword search and pulling up some stuff that looks somewhere in your area of interest. it gets the ball rolling
 
I'll probably end up making one for myself anyway, it's not that complicated, really.

But I run the risk of theft of the idea. But it's not like I play high profile gigs.

Does anyone know how much a patent search costs? How do I do one w/o a lawyer?


As stated by Jim, you can do this online at www.uspto.gov. However, you may want to invest a trip and some time into visiting a patent repository. I went to the repository on the campus at OSU - in the library. You probably need to call and set up an appointment because they will tell you how to search and the classisifcations.

I can't find the book I was looking for, but Nolo has a book titled, "Patent it yourself" by David Pressman and it has list of the patent repositorys in it. You can find this book on the shelf of your local library.


For example, I looked up Bucks County, PA and it looks like you are fairly close to Philadelphia. The nearest patent repository might be at Temple Universtiy's library.


The biggest thing, Larry, is that you may have something which makes a snare drum better, just like the Dynasonic, which may give you an advantage over all of the other snare drums out there. But, you don't want to divulge this idea until you know one way or the other; you either have something which hasn't been patented or it has already been done. Until you know that part of the equation though, you want to keep it a secret until you know one way or the other.

Either way, you will have decisions to make on the outcome. And the mountain of getting a patent has behind it another mountain and behind that one, another mountain. And just having a patent doesn't mean that you are millionaire overnight! A patent doesn't do marketing for you or production of what your product; you have to assume the reponsibilities for this yourself. This is where all of those companies you see advertised on TV rip you off. They claim that they will get you a patent and get your invention to market. They have very few if any success stories and the typical scam costs the victim much more than what a patent attorney would have cost the victim in the first place. And the typical victim ends up with only a design patent.


I started off making my part just for myself. I was able to work with it and do my own field testing and sounds like you could do it as well. I put it out on Ebay after I had attained a provisional patent. The provisional patent allows you the year to see if anyone else will find your invention useful enough to pay for it. If they do, great!! If not then you only have about $100 invested and some of your time.


I remember two things;

I met with a couple who had invented the gel-filled teething ring for infants and the man told me about all of this mountain stuff with the most serious look in his eye. At one point, I thought he was going to tell me that I had only a week to live.

The other thing is that my brother laughs at me now; he woud have never thought that his brother, who used to sleep through all of the business classes in college, would ever run a business!




So hopefully you will take just the first step to find out whether you have something unique or not.


Mike

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