Are Metal Drummers over-rated?

Well sure, but that also depends on the kind of metal. Doom and stoner metal goes on the theory that heaviness comes from slow, crushing riffs. Compare Sleep or Yob to Brain Drill and Blind Guardian. They're just on total opposite ends of the spectrum, y'know?

It's hard to say what metal is or isn't, given the GIANT variation in styles.
 
You can classify metal but classifications are inherently flawed wherever there is any real depth of creativity. Two things all metal shares in common is riffs and rock roots, as soon as it loses that it enters vague categories. A lot of more symphonic metal bands like Epica and Blind Guardian brush on being considered neo-classical and plenty of metal bands walk a fine line between being rock or metal, what is rock music really...

MisterMixelpix said:
Well sure, but that also depends on the kind of metal. Doom and stoner metal goes on the theory that heaviness comes from slow, crushing riffs. Compare Sleep or Yob to Brain Drill and Blind Guardian. They're just on total opposite ends of the spectrum, y'know?

It's hard to say what metal is or isn't, given the GIANT variation in styles.
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When I listen to metal I only listen to bands that don't overuse the double bass. Listening to Slipknot isn't really my cup of tea since thats pretty much all Joey does is double bass the whole song and trigger his snare so you hear that over everything else. Bands like Tool, Opeth, and Iron Maiden are great from a drummers stand point because they entertain and don't make everything sound overused.

Take "Lateralus" by Tool for example. That song is so freaking long and Danny Carey doesn't bore me at all.

Or "The Lotus Eater" from Opeth. Blast beats aside, there is some solid drumming in this. And what is that? A funky breakdown? The majority of Opeth songs are like this. Good drumming and interesting transitions.

Now that I said that, I can talk about jazz. There are so many jazz drummers that all sound amazing. My understanding is that there is a simple beat that most people work with to craft into something completely different. 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 is all well and good, but jazz makes it more complex. That is what makes jazz drummers so much more versatile because they don't work with straight beats like a lot of rock drummers do.

I'm not saying that all metal drummers aren't versatile. There are some gems out there that give metal a good name. But there are also some poseurs that give it a bad rep.
 
Wow!!! When the laundry gets hung around here, It sure does get dried out!
Juist kidding, Keep on posting away at this!
 
As far as metal goes, I tip my hat for Bill Ward (founder of metal drumming) - Black Sabbath / Les Binks - Judas Priest / John Tempesta - White Zombie - Rob Zombie - The Cult. Are these drummers over-rated? It might be for Mr.Binks, who is off the surface and went underground, doing his own life.
 
As it's becoming apparent I like both metal and jazz, a few of the metal bands I enjoy are Isis, Agalloch, Cult of Luna, Cynic, Ne Obliviscaris.. I greatly dislike almost all death/black metal due to the noise factor, the same can be said with a lot of commercial metal, occasionally I like a more commercial metal band (I loved A perfect circles debut) but that was due to the fact it was incredibly solid rock, not "Brutal" or "Hardcore" or any of those other metal adjectives that get bandied around.
 
Frost said:
Perhaps where you live and I've noticed the trend as well, personally I don't use a double bass either, not all fast drummers are meatheads however, George Kollias released a fantastic instructional DVD.

I disagree that exceptions are exceptions as metal archives has 73586 registered bands and they snob anything commercial and ask that bands have at least released public demo material. I think the trend you're mentioning is more a problem with certain faster more aggressive styles of metal, I have certainly never heard any double bass abuse in doom metal.

Here is an example of an utterly amazing local metal band who use a lot of double bass, you wouldn't say it didn't fit the music though and you wouldn't say the drums were uncreative. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQOpQ9sFQR4.
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ZAKHOPPER316 and ill tell you the exceptions are exceptions because they learned the drums at a young age before theres was double bass and then implemented into their play later. i just keep seeing this failing system of new drummers that buy a double bass learn how to play it at fast as they can, realize they dont know how to actually play the drums and quit. its a real drumming epidemic here where i live
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again i agree with you that different styles have more of an issue with this but what im speaking on is more of an educational issue that is destroying young players. i think double bass would be universally effective if kids waited at least 3 years to get one, not from day one.
 
It certainly is an educational issue, it's like guitarists and their need to shred. I don't think that young musicians should be disallowed double pedals, again to use a guitar analogy it's like learning to alternate pick, you don't always need to but it's a useful skill to have. I think what it requires is a more rounded education into what is music which could be helped by a probe into why the student likes music and what music means to them. Ultimately if they like the sound of rumbling thunder or the click of a 800bpm bass trigger you just need to let them go about doing what gives them enjoyment, you can't force your tastes in music on someone.
 
A lot of very closed-minded and dismissive posting going on in this thread which is very unfortunate IMO.

People are only emphasizing speed/power for metal and creativity/feel for jazz. This is bewildering as I listen to bands(drummers) in each respective genre with the supposed characteristics and feel of their, for the sake of this thread, opposite.

For an example of creativity, touch, taste, independence, DYNAMICS!!!!!!!!, and playing for the song in the metal genre might I recommend Textures, Tesseract and Periphery.

I also strongly dislike any elitisim with regard either style of drumming. Speed and power? Buddy Rich? George Kollias? Jojo Mayer? Travis Orbin?

Threads like this can serve to highlight people's relative inexperience and/or their age. Forgive me if that sounds condescending, I can see bits of myself a few years ago with half-formed, ill-conceived ideas about what drumming (in any genre) is/was/should be cropping throughout this thread.

In closing, listen to ALL types of music, there is a band in almost every genre for everyone to enjoy, don't dismiss an entire subset of human musical expression just because of a handful of over-played or over-referenced bands that annoy you!

Also, to those who say double-pedals are cheating.... two hands use two sticks, two feet can make excellent use of a hell of a lot more pedals, be they a hi-hat and double kick, or 15 differently tuned cowbells!
 
Fiery said:
Some can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLRnltoKSZI
The thing with metal music is that a drummer will be derided for not putting enough chops wherever they can make it fit.
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That was great. That is a real drummer. I listened to some of his metal youtubes and while he has phenomenal double strokes on the bass, there wasn't a lot of groove there. Things wavered around a bit. But in those blues vids, he showed he can swing. And what was really impressive is that he played an old time double shuffle, not a ZZ Top rock shuffle. He had respect for the genre he was playing and the vocabulary to pull it off. That is a real musician in my book.

aydee said:
A metal drummer is basically a jazz drummer, upside down.


....
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Actually I think there's merit to this. No sarcasm intended. If you look at a Smaart plot of modern metal, there's a ton of stuff right in the frequency area of cymbals and the upper partials of the snare. The very places most drummers live, is all filled up with the multiple high gain guitars buzzing away. But there are a couple of holes in the mid bass in between the lows and the bright roundwound pianostring bass guitar that leave room for a clicky bass drum. That means that the only thing a drummer in that genre can do to establish rhythm, or find space for fills, is on the bass drum(s).
 
larryace said:
. But can metal drummers resist all temptation to blow chops just because they can make it fit, and just keep "boring" time to a blues song?
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Derek Roddy certainly plays great on blues songs. Check out the clips he posted of the blues band he plays with. Very nice drumming. Can't remember the title of the thread though. Maybe somebody else knows, or maybe we'll get lucky and Derek will read this and post the link :)

BTW I nearly pissed myself after reading the first post. Thanks Frost, I needed that. It has been a very long and stressful day for me.
 
Frost said:
Another great artistic metal drummer, proving more exists to drumming in metal than speed and blasting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJt_4Gafq6g
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Thanks for posting that. One of the best, most tasteful metal drumming i've heard.

I don't think metal drummers are bad at all, but I just don't find it as interesting as jazz, and while many are over rated, a lot of them could be considered very creative/tasteful. It's just a matter of finding the right ones.
 
Breadmonkey said:
Also, to those who say double-pedals are cheating.... two hands use two sticks, two feet can make excellent use of a hell of a lot more pedals, be they a hi-hat and double kick, or 15 differently tuned cowbells!
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a good player uses 2 feet, the high hat pedal is used for keeping time, the bass pedal for accenting rhythms. a double bass means 3 pedals for 2 feet? people don't incorporate an extra stick unless one breaks, which still would be only 2 sticks,

that being said, i enjoy some double bass players, just not the ones that play 16th notes on it for a hole set
 
zakhopper316 said:
a good player uses 2 feet, the high hat pedal is used for keeping time, the bass pedal for accenting rhythms. a double bass means 3 pedals for 2 feet? people don't incorporate an extra stick unless one breaks, which still would be only 2 sticks,

that being said, i enjoy some double bass players, just not the ones that play 16th notes on it for a hole set
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That's a matter of taste. By saying what the bass pedal is FOR is just nonsense. That's what you like it to be used for, but right now I'm listening to 1349's "Demonoir" and without the blast beats and double kicks it would sound awful.
 
I cannot relate to metal. I do not understand how anyone could enjoy cookie monster vocals. I don't understand the appeal of machine gun kick drums (other than as a brief musical climax device). It's clearly about excitement and adrenaline but that's as far as it goes to my understanding.

I think the extreme edges of metal will become increasingly fringe. However the growling and machine gun devices will find their way into the mainstream in the same way as a lot of pop now has rap elements - hip hop beats and rap "solos" where you used to hear guitar solos. Still, every now and then a guitar solo pops up in the mainstream too. Rock's not dead; it just smells funny.

I think these movements are ultimately positive because they expand the lexicon of music - there are now new elements to employ in music-making - and this is coming from someone who finds most metal unlistenable.

While the music scene as a whole is more eclectic than ever before, individual performers and bands appear to be becoming less eclectic, more specialised. It's as though bands are becoming like ants - each with a specific, specialised function and ne'er the twain shall meet. There's so much pressure from the industry, critics, venue owners and fans to fill a particular identifiable genre niche. It's as though they need to have a clear "brand" for marketing purposes, purchasing decisions and subculture identification.

The joyful eclecticism and genre-bending of groups in the 60s and 70s is diminishing; it's still there but my gut feeling is that it's less so as a proportion of total bands. I'm sure people can give examples of eclectic bands today but exceptions don't prove the rule. It's just my impression; I could be wrong.

I like a band that keeps you guessing, where you have no idea what they'll come up with next, not only from album to album, but within albums or even within their songs. I've seen increasingly less of that since the 80s.

Are metal drummers overrated? That style of drumming will become increasingly influential IMO. I know that I couldn't do that lightning fast and precise double-kick thing to save my life (BTW, great comment about it being jazz drumming upsidedown, Abe - the focus has shifted from the top to the bottom). Credit where credit's due.

Metal drumming is neither overrated or underrated; it just is. As with everything, not all metal drummers are equal. What I would like to see is more metal players pay attention to feel and groove with their hands. I often hear metal players with fast but very superficial and weak handwork while the feet are pedalling away - even some lauded players. There's an obvious lack of feel, I guess because the focus is so much on the feet.

Every now and then I'll hear a really good metal drummer who does get that oomph and groove with his hands as well as his feet, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Pity, it would make a world of difference.
 
Pollyanna said:
I cannot relate to metal. I do not understand how anyone could enjoy cookie monster vocals. I don't understand the appeal of machine gun kick drums (other than as a brief musical climax device). It's clearly about excitement and adrenaline but that's as far as it goes to my understanding.
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That's fair enough, that's your own taste in music and I appreciate your reasonable response. On the subject of growling, metal vocalists used to sing to an extent in the 70's but the whole thrash scene changed that and vocalists just started to almost shout (like tom araya of slayer) to keep up with the beat of the music and be heard over the loud guitars. Over time shouting developed into growling to make the music sound heavier.

I do think growls have a place in music but I understand they are not everyone's cup of tea. Growls bring out the animal side of the human voice, it's like the alpha male in a pack of wolves snarling at a younger contender. That kind of harsh, abrasive side of vocals can be worked into the dynamics of music (it can make something sound more beautiful through juxtaposition or heavier through the effect).

Growling also tends to be very atonal, for that reason it can carry the music from section to section by providing a lead without effecting any melodies that may already be playing, sometimes the music has an abundance of melody and harmony and having someone sing over it is redundant and can detract from the sound of the instruments.

You can't sing over most death metal.
 
I love it when a singer can do everything with his voice, sing AND growl and it doesn't have to end there. Both have their places. But I gotta admit, I have a sweet spot for Jonas Renkse.
 
Frost said:
they are not everyone's cup of tea.
Growls bring out the animal side of the human voice, it's like the alpha male in a pack of wolves snarling at a younger contender.
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Wow - i never thought on this. For me it sounds sometimes more like an old elephant being hit by a baby buggy.

Bernhard
 
Bernhard said:
Wow - i never thought on this. For me it sounds sometimes more like an old elephant being hit by a baby buggy.

Bernhard
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I can sound comical but a lot of that is the fact that not everyone can do it, it's like singing. Not everyone can sing well but most people can learn to hit notes, not everyone can growl well but a lot of people can imitate growls.

I think they are an acquired taste but not everyone likes scatting, it's just a new, modern use for the human voice in music.
 
An old elephant being hit by a baby buggy - lol. I was thinking more Joe Cocker or Satchmo having a massive temper tantrum :)

Frost said:
it's just a new, modern use for the human voice in music.
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Maybe not entirely new? It seems to share some similarities with Tibetan throat singing but without less complex overtones (which would be lost with metal backing).
 
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