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  #1  
Old 02-09-2019, 11:17 AM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

We've got a behringer xr18 with individual monitor mixes and me, the vocalist and the keyboard player are on in-ears. The guitarist and bassist are still using wedges and guitarist uses a 4x12 Marshall, bassist a 4x10, so stage is not 'quiet'.

Hearing my drums clearly yet quietly is a revelation, utterly brilliant. I've got a D112 on a Kelly shu in the bass drum.

For my own monitor mix I would be happy with a single omni or overhead so I can hear what I'm playing and continue to self-balance the kit. On the other hand close-mics are much better for the mains due to the bleed from bass and guitar. One gig (fairly big room - main room at a rugby club) I had close mic'd the snare and floor tom and the feedback was that you couldn't hear enough hats or ride. I know this is unusual but the only open mic on the stage is the one singer as neither I nor anyone else sings backup, hence there's not a lot to pick up the bronze.

If I close mic everything I need to set up a load more mics, which is fine, but it also means that my monitor mix reflects the position of the faders, rather than how well I am balancing my playing. It would also be a lot of work given that in some rooms none of those mics will be in the mains at all.

I could have an overhead that I just use for my monitor mix, and close mics for FOH, but that's obviously more setup time and more stuff to cart around.

So currently I've got a mic on the left aimed at the snare, about a foot out, which picks up snare and hats, and one on the right aimed at the floor tom, which gets tom and ride and I can balance them by moving them and pointing them differently. This works pretty well, and I am happy with what I'm hearing in the monitor mix, but it's not perfect: on the snare/hat mic I'm getting proportionally more snare buzz due to the mic being more to the side of the snare than facing down onto it. On the floor tom mic I'd like to add some gentle compression because I use it both muffled with a towel to ride on in the song 'over my head' and wide open for fills and double stops, and that's some serious dynamic range, but the mic being a foot out means I will bring up the stage noise/bleed if I do that, whereas if I was close mic'ing I would get proportionally less and get away with it. Any closer than where I am now and I'm losing the ride.

So What works for you? (Value input from folks that actually run in ears and have experience with it, rather than speculative / nay sayers.)

Cheers!
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

If there is feedback in a mic, that is an FOH issue that should be solved. If there is feedback in the ears, it means there is feedback in the mains too.

What is also possible is the mic isn't placed right or your tuning is not where it needs to be and you are just getting lots of bad overtones in the mic that sounds like feedback, that is possible as well.

Are you saying that you are not running overheads at all right now? In-ears or not, at least one overhead is something that I would always have on my kit. Honestly, I'd put an overhead on before I would close mic everything.

Personally, I wouldn't use a single mic for snare/hat. I would close mic the snare with an SM57 or Audix i5 and use overhead(s) to pick up your hats and other cymbals. If you had the luxury of adding an additional mic for close miking hi-hats, then I would but I wouldn't share between hats and snare.
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:07 PM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

Sorry mate, you misunderstood me.
Not 'feedback' in terms of audio. 'Feedback' as in the considered opinion of the folks who were listening out front. Constructive criticism if you will. People reporting back to me what the sound was like out front.

No way I'm getting any audio feedback - there's no floor wedges!!

Thanks for your thoughts in terms of what you would or wouldn't do, but what do YOU actually DO? Are you running in ears?
Cheers!
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Originally Posted by Midiglitch View Post
Sorry mate, you misunderstood me.
Not 'feedback' in terms of audio. 'Feedback' as in the considered opinion of the folks who were listening out front. Constructive criticism if you will. People reporting back to me what the sound was like out front.

No way I'm getting any audio feedback - there's no floor wedges!!

Thanks for your thoughts in terms of what you would or wouldn't do, but what do YOU actually DO? Are you running in ears?
Cheers!
Sorry, I see "feedback" mentioned when talking about mics I automatically think audio feedback. Anyway, my advice still stands. Close mic snare and add some overheads and maybe an additional hi-hat mic if needed.

I don't currently run ears, but I have in the past. I have also spent time as a technical director in charge of sound/lighting/etc for a large mega church where everyone was on ears. So I have experience playing with ears and having to mix for people running ears both.

For my ear mix start with the Kick and set my overall volume based on that, then add snare in, then I usually mix in the bass guitar, then mix in overheads, lastly toms and the rest of the band.

I also like to make sure for drums, I'm using at least dual driver in ears too.
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

The answer with IEMs will always be more mics because those options are the only way of adjusting what you hear. I'd just go all the way and take advantage of the mixer's capabilities. You only need 3 stands, for BD and OHs. The rest can be clip-ons. Make your own cable solution if that makes it easier for you. Compared to setting up a drum kit, setting up a few extra mics isn't much work at all.

If there's a general problem with using OHs because of bleed there are other issues.
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:46 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

I use IEMs with an ambient mic specifically to pick up the kit, and rely on that for most of my drum mix. I do have kick in my ears (and thumper) and my vocal mic adds a bit.

Obviously my drums are also mic'd for FOH, and over the years I've gradually begun to introduce snare & toms for a little extra presence, but they're maybe 20% of the mix. The ambient mic really carries the load.

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Old 02-09-2019, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

You should definitely set up overheads! I've been in this situation countless times where the engineer has said: "no overheads today. The room is too small." I still set them up anyway because I really like having them in the in-ear mix. It takes maybe an extra two or three minutes.

Another technique that helps an in-ear mix to sound bigger is to set up an ambiance or crowd microphone at the front of the stage, pointed at the audience. A 57 gets the trick done for me, but experiment with any mic you have laying around.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:57 PM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

I preach this all the time, but getting IEMs with the “ambient” feature (which is just a port that allows some external noise to gently go to your ears, at a comfortable -15dB) has been great. For most gigs I just have the kick, vocals, keys and horns. A gig needs to be very loud, for Tom mics or overheads to become necessary.

You’re aware that on the XR18 you can set up your own monitor mix, independently of the main mix? Just connect your IEMs to an aux output.
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  #9  
Old 02-09-2019, 06:33 PM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

Thanks for the replies so far.
Having thought about it all day my plan now is (in addition to the d112 in the kick) to primarily go with a single overhead. This will be for my monitor mix, and where venues warrant it, like the rugby club, FoH can pull this up in the mains.

Odd-Arne, I think you are onto something about the bleed: if they can't bring up my overhead without that bringing too much bass or guitar into the mains then the bass/guitar level needs to come down on the stage.

I'll keep my other mics and clips handy in case any individual drum / hi hat needs close-miking in addition. This might solve my floor tom issue in a parallel compression kind of way.

Bermuda, I'm using a bc gigster and it has honestly fundamentally changed my understanding of the instrument. Now I truly understand that drums are about feel!
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:36 PM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Originally Posted by NickCesarz View Post
You should definitely set up overheads! I've been in this situation countless times where the engineer has said: "no overheads today. The room is too small." I still set them up anyway because I really like having them in the in-ear mix. It takes maybe an extra two or three minutes.

Another technique that helps an in-ear mix to sound bigger is to set up an ambiance or crowd microphone at the front of the stage, pointed at the audience. A 57 gets the trick done for me, but experiment with any mic you have laying around.
Interesting, cheers. Are you using only the overheads and bass drum for your monitor mix, or are you getting a tiny bit of weight from close mics too, like Bermuda?

Question to all:
Why two overheads, and not just one? No phase issues issues, I don't need to hear my monitor mix in stereo, and FOH certainly isn't panning my drums pin stereo, so what are the advantages?
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

My go-to suggestion: Get a boundary mic and set it on the floor for self-monitoring. I do this often and it really helps me understand my own volume. Less worry about stands and positioning; often nobody knows it's there except me.
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:42 PM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
I preach this all the time, but getting IEMs with the “ambient” feature (which is just a port that allows some external noise to gently go to your ears, at a comfortable -15dB) has been great. For most gigs I just have the kick, vocals, keys and horns. A gig needs to be very loud, for Tom mics or overheads to become necessary.

You’re aware that on the XR18 you can set up your own monitor mix, independently of the main mix? Just connect your IEMs to an aux output.
The dream for me would be custom in ears with built in mics, so I can hear 'normally' but at like 20dB quieter. However those are beyond my means currently. The ported ones you describe also sound good, but I figure since I have total control over my own mix (as you rightly note - and see first sentence of my OP ;) ) I might as well plumb for maximum isolation and then add in whatever I need.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Interesting, cheers. Are you using only the overheads and bass drum for your monitor mix, or are you getting a tiny bit of weight from close mics too, like Bermuda?

Question to all:
Why two overheads, and not just one? No phase issues, I don't need to hear my monitor mix in stereo, and FOH certainly isn't panning my drums pin stereo, so what are the advantages?
I have a nice mix of everything in the ear mix. All close-miked drums are panned their position relative to where I see them in front of me. It helps create space. Obviously, this requires a stereo mix.

I like two overheads because they give a nice image of the whole kit to my mix. I certainly don't need it, but it is nice.
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Bermuda, I'm using a bc gigster and it has honestly fundamentally changed my understanding of the instrument. Now I truly understand that drums are about feel!
Yep, the kick is the heart of the kit!
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Another technique that helps an in-ear mix to sound bigger is to set up an ambiance or crowd microphone at the front of the stage, pointed at the audience.
Depending on the size of the room and how much of that mic is in the mix, it could be a detriment. In a closed theater for example, that mic hears the back of the room, including the delay of the p.a. traveling from the stage to the back wall and back again. In as small as a 1,200 capacity room, it's noticeable, and if loud enough, plays havoc with staying in time with everyone (whether they're hearing that slapback or not.)

My ambient mic picks up just enough of the house so I don't feel like I'm in the studio. Not that that's a bad thing, some players want to hear a live sound on a live gig. I want to hear what I need to hear in order to do sound good in the band, so the instruments are more important to me than having to experience the live vibe. I already know I'm live, the mix doesn't tell me that.

Bermuda
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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Depending on the size of the room and how much of that mic is in the mix, it could be a detriment. In a closed theater for example, that mic hears the back of the room, including the delay of the p.a. traveling from the stage to the back wall and back again. In as small as a 1,200 capacity room, it's noticeable, and if loud enough, plays havoc with staying in time with everyone (whether they're hearing that slapback or not.)

My ambient mic picks up just enough of the house so I don't feel like I'm in the studio. Not that that's a bad thing, some players want to hear a live sound on a live gig. I want to hear what I need to hear in order to do sound good in the band, so the instruments are more important to me than having to experience the live vibe. I already know I'm live, the mix doesn't tell me that.

Bermuda
Totally true. And just for clarification, this mic we use is not very hot in our mixes. It acts like a room microphone. In my experience using a microphone at the front of the stage, pointed at the crowd, behind the PA, has never caused any issues mix-wise. But if it did, I'd turn it down.

The difference in our setups is your ambient mic I assume is much closer and is pointed at your kit, right?
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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The difference in our setups is your ambient mic I assume is much closer and is pointed at your kit, right?
Yep, so it picks up much more of the kit than it does the house, so it feels intimate with just enough room. That is, if some fans screamed out "Bermuda, we love you!" from the audience, I'd hear it.

I guess.

Will let you know if it ever happens.
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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I have a nice mix of everything in the ear mix. All close-miked drums are panned their position relative to where I see them in front of me. It helps create space. Obviously, this requires a stereo mix.

I like two overheads because they give a nice image of the whole kit to my mix. I certainly don't need it, but it is nice.
And do you set up like this for every gig?
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:10 AM
sumdrumguy sumdrumguy is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

I change my mic setup to suite the gig - the band, the music, and the room. For small rooms, if the band is louder I will use kick and a single overhead. For larger rooms, I close mic the drums.

I only use in-ears for gigs where I play to a click, or backing tracks. In those instances, I don't like any drums in my ears. If I were to use in-ears for gigs without a click/tracks, I would probably use an ambient mic - like a single overhead - to capture the full kit.

In the context you describe, kick mic and a single overhead would probably suffice. The single overhead could serve as an ambient mic for your in-ears.

For more defined sound, you could add close mics to the snare and toms. Send those to your PA, or FOH. Still use an ambient mic for your ears.
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

If your IEM overhead is picking up too much stage sound, try a figure 8 mic or even a shotgun mic. One venue I play swaps between a Rode Nt3 (hypercardioid) an SE ribbon mic ( figure 8) and a Rode NG shotgun for overhead drums, to plenty of drums with minimal amps and wedges.

Sometimes they place the shotgun above my right shoulder, pointing at the snare and toms, to get more drums and less cymbals in the mic.
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:41 AM
Midiglitch Midiglitch is offline
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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If your IEM overhead is picking up too much stage sound, try a figure 8 mic or even a shotgun mic. One venue I play swaps between a Rode Nt3 (hypercardioid) an SE ribbon mic ( figure 8) and a Rode NG shotgun for overhead drums, to plenty of drums with minimal amps and wedges.

Sometimes they place the shotgun above my right shoulder, pointing at the snare and toms, to get more drums and less cymbals in the mic.
Cheers, I'm using two rode M3s for overhead type duties. They seem pretty directional. I believe they are supposed to be a cheaper version of the NT3 you mention.
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: In ear monitor users - mic'ing question

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My go-to suggestion: Get a boundary mic and set it on the floor for self-monitoring. I do this often and it really helps me understand my own volume. Less worry about stands and positioning; often nobody knows it's there except me.
Al - where do you place it??

I run in ears with close mics in every venue, big or small, but only add overheads when outdoors. Never had anyone suggest hats/ride/crashes are lost in the foh mix - usually the opposite in fact, and i've never needed them in my monitors.
Our digital desk allows me to control my monitor mix from my phone and i just dial in (or out) whatever i need.
I should add my in ears have the ambient port in them.....
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:23 PM
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Al - where do you place it??
I place it just in front of, or just underneath, the front hoop of the bass drum depending on stage size (under the hoop if it's a small stage, because guitarists). I get a really nice bass drum sound, very good snare, and enough of everything else. The best part is no microphones sticking up around me (other than my vocal mic).
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Old 02-11-2019, 05:48 PM
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I place it just in front of, or just underneath, the front hoop of the bass drum depending on stage size (under the hoop if it's a small stage, because guitarists). I get a really nice bass drum sound, very good snare, and enough of everything else. The best part is no microphones sticking up around me (other than my vocal mic).

Do you send it foh or use it just for monitors?? Is it the only mic you use on the kit??

Do you have a mic recommendation??

Thanks in advance......
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:14 PM
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Do you send it foh or use it just for monitors?? Is it the only mic you use on the kit??

Do you have a mic recommendation??

Thanks in advance......
I use it for either/both depending on the room and the situation. For smaller rooms, I use it into my personal mixer for my own self-monitoring; in mid-sized venues (and even in some large venues in a pinch) I send it to the FOH and ask for it to be turned up appropriately in my FOH mix. It serves well enough to be used in an outdoor amphitheatre or in a fairground pavilion for 600+ people.

I own a Shure 819/881 combo pack (the discontinued forerunner of the Beta 91) and a Sennheiser e901; I use the Sennheiser on occasion for whole-kit miking but my preference for that application is the Shure. The e901 is optimized for bass drum and I prefer it in that application, inside the drum.
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Old 02-11-2019, 06:16 PM
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I use it for either/both depending on the room and the situation. For smaller rooms, I use it into my personal mixer for my own self-monitoring; in mid-sized venues (and even in some large venues in a pinch) I send it to the FOH and ask for it to be turned up appropriately in my FOH mix. It serves well enough to be used in an outdoor amphitheatre or in a fairground pavilion for 600+ people.

I own a Shure 819/881 combo pack (the discontinued forerunner of the Beta 91) and a Sennheiser e901; I use the Sennheiser on occasion for whole-kit miking but my preference for that application is the Shure. The e901 is optimized for bass drum and I prefer it in that application, inside the drum.
Interesting.....thanks my friend!
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:24 AM
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And do you set up like this for every gig?
Sorry for late reply, but yes. A few year's progress developing a system that is easy to patch every night.
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