Band drama...what would you do?

Here's my story, I want honest opinions. What would you do?

Last Saturday we had a gig with my blues band.

Facts:
-The bar is notorious for wanting the music low. Acoustics are horrible
-Our band has 2000 watt PA, 3 monitors and 3 mics.
-bass players has a 300watt head and cab, guitar player has about the same (thats about as specific as I get)
-I play on PDP birch 4 pc, Zildjian Armands, Tama artwood custom Maple with maple hoops, no mic's (for this gig anyway).
-We are all older guys with admitted hearing loss in our own respected freqs.
_set list (blues/classic-Tulsa Time, Stormy Monday, Crossroads, Little Wing, Move it on over, Blue on Black)

So we are playing through the first set, and we were told to turn down. Now I am acoustic and I play with 5A sticks, I am A snappy player but i don't crush my instrument. I was playing with the sticks about 5" off the head to reduce volume.

(Here's a video of me playing in a louder environment).



So, when the guitarist turned down, he said he could not hear himself and was making mistakes (He has twin 150watt cabs one stage left and one stage right in stereo) because the drums were to loud. I was told to play with brushes.

So I did.

I challenged the guitar player afterwords telling him that for the acoustic instrument to play with brushes was not only ludicrous, but reduces my effectiveness (no double stroke rolls, etc.). He said he had been playing for a long time and knows what he's talking about and that me playing quieter was the right thing to do.

Now my problem is this. If He can hear himself, the BAssist should of turned down (We get constant complaints of him being too loud) and the PA should of turned down (our lead singer BELTS), rather than making the already acoustic drummer play with brushes.

AM I wrong? Or are the electric instruments suppose to be only as loud as the acoustic instruments?

thanks....
 
I would have maybe tried hot rods. But if the band is to loud the whole mix should be truned down not just on instrument. This will help to keep the balance.
 
that's kind of a touchy situation. maybe you could get someone you trust in the audience to evaluate how the mix sounds after things are turned down and tell you what they think needs to be softer or louder. it's a little hard to tell on stage how the mix sounds anyway, and that way you leave it up to an objective non-band person to tell you.

if that happened to me, i would try rods before going to brushes. i'll play with brushes if i have to, but you're right about them not bouncing and so on. rods are a pretty good compromise.
 
Wait...you said they turned down, and then you were the loudest thing, right? If so, then they DID turn down, and they are right that you needed to be quiet. A gigging drummer should have a stick bag that reflects the fact that we may have to "turn down." I use 5As regularly, but keep a pair of Hot Rods, Lightning Rods, Blast Sticks, and brushes in my bag.

This actually happened at a show with my one band the other day. I started off with full sticks, and we kept getting asked to turn down (it was a restaurant that wanted to try a band for the first time, and in the end, they basically wanted us as loud as the music that most restaurants normally play - you know, that you can barely hear). I literally did the "walk of shame" down my stick bag (as everyone else turned down as well)...I went from sticks, to the Hot Rods, to Lightning Rods, to the Blast Sticks, and finally to brushes. It sucks, and it certainly hurts your playing, but in the end, it's about what the venue wants, and the band needs to be able to hear themselves and keep you in the mix, as opposed to over it.
 
Dairyairman has some good advice here...I have played in similiar situations and have gone to rods when necessary and had help from the audience with the entire mix, usualy from someone who we know that has come to listen to the band and has heard us many times. I have seen many a band clear out a small venue because they were so loud it hurt the patrons ears! I'm not saying this is your situation but it happens.

My wife and I were at a nice rib house that had a small blues band playing in the bar just this last weekend. When the band started the bar was full, within half an hour the group was playing to two or three people. We were at least 100' away and it was loud. The group was good too! just way to loud.
 
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i watched the video. yeah, i would say you're playing very moderately in that video, and sound good. your bass player is indeed pretty heavy in the mix in that though. is his amp close to the mic?
 
If youre using brushes or Hot Rods and cant hear yourself, then THEY are the ones being too loud. What my band does is we all find a volume that is comfortable enough so that none of us have to wear plugs (or where you can see people in the crowd talking to each other without yelling). Also I use Maple Jazz sticks so that I can not physically play too loud without breaking sticks. Anoher good idea is to get one of those Zoom H2 recorders and listen to the recoring together, so that they will hear who is actually too loud.
 
thanx to all.

D- His bass was on the other side of the drums in that video.

I would of used rods but they shattered a long time ago.

I admit I was unprepared for the situation, but I still feel like they were not willing to work with me. Where the heck is the teamwork?
 
It's impossible to tell how loud you are on stage. Have someone you trust in the audience judge and recommend to your sound people, or judge the patrons by how they are talking to each other. Then adjust the mix by how it sounds in the audience. It sounds more like you have personnel issues that need to be worked out among the band. Kind of a sensitive issue though.

I had something similar happen a few months ago. Our "leader" played lead guitar. I was constantly asking him if I was playing too loud. This guy continuously tells me I am not, it sounds fine. Several trusted friends told me I was playing a bit too loud, but nothing too serious, so I corrected it. Simple fix. I ask my buds later and they agree I am playing softer; it sounds fine. Good job. Several weeks go by and this guy fires me for no reason. He never told me anything. I had to learn of it through another band member.....

Guitar players!!! Why is it you never hear tuba players or violin players, even oboe players as obnoxious or egotistical as guitar players??
 
thanx to all.

D- His bass was on the other side of the drums in that video.

I would of used rods but they shattered a long time ago.

I admit I was unprepared for the situation, but I still feel like they were not willing to work with me. Where the heck is the teamwork?

Well, what is the goal of the band? To be able to hear each other as well as possible, or to provide the service that the venue wants you to perform? I'm not trying to be hard on you here, but it honestly sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to be a team player, because you are mad that you had to switch to brushes to stay balanced with the bands volume, even though that volume was dictated by the venue. If I am missing something and am wrong, then I apologize...I'm only reading what you posted. In the end, though, a happy venue keeps the band working, and a band that won't turn down, etc, will find that they won't play that venue again...and that other club owners will hear about it.
 
It seems like when the band is too loud it's the bass that's driving it. If you can get him to turn down then everyone else can lay back too. I'm old and I hate playing loud anymore, but when the bass is flooding the room with noise I stiffen up and start hammering. Then the guitar player gets pissed off, the monitors get turned up and so on.

A cool clubowner who is also a trained sound man said that they learned your ears shut down within a couple minutes of heavy bass and most players' ears go numb and they cannot tell when it's too loud after that. The typical noob keeps turning the bass up in the mix.

The wild card for drummers is how much is going through the singing mics.
 
IDK 5" off the head sounds kinda loud for a quiet situation. You should be able to play really quietly with sticks. I agree that its hard to play your best that soft. But you gotta be appropriate. I use 7A's when I really have to tone it down. Choking up on the stick is another good way to turn yourself down.
 
Hey Brain, what was it sounding like to you? Could you hear the guitar ok? I hate it when the stage mix is whacky and you can't hear someone. You end up playing by rote because you can't meld into the band sound.

Flix produces a range of plastic brushes of different weights, including one with a bead sticking out so you can ping your ride and hats (haven't tried it, just seen them in Billy Hyde). I have to admit that, so far, I haven't liked their blue rock brush. You really need to hammer it or the tone on a tightly tuned snare head is horrific. I wasted a few $$ there. The other weights might be better. There's a guy on YouTube who drums to records using Flix - insane stuff like the Police and Genesis - and they sound pretty good. The Vic Firth plastic jazz brush has a little more oomph than wire brushes although no good for sweeping, but I doubt will be an issue for your band.

If you're going to use brushes it's well worth spending some quality time with them so you can adjust. They are very different animals to sticks!

I recently changed to brushes after starting with a very laid back band after eons using sticks in rock bands. It's been a few months and I'm still a fair way from being able to use them to my satisfaction. I really miss the bounce, and brushes are demanding masters - if you get your stroke slightly wrong the tone gets ugly. Brushes in blues can be sweet and I've heard some fine drummers, like the guy in Jeff Lang's band, sound fabulous with them. Perhaps you could make lemonade from this lemon?
 
Yeah, 5" is still too high up... Practice those mp/p/ppp dynamics - cuz they can kick your butt if you're not used to it (sloppy singles/doubles etc)

and also *practice with your brushes*! If you can't do a double-stroke roll with your brushes, work on your double stroke rolls with your brushes. Also, you can do some nice rim-rolls with brushes (which sound better if your brushes have rubber-coated handles, instead of those Regal wood brushes) or work on the speed of your singles to make a *musical* single stroke roll, rather than just trying to play singles as fast as you can (or can't).

Brushes are great, and can really seperate the men from the boys. If you can, put an hour a day of practice in there with them. Your stick-playing will thank you too!


So yeah - with that 5" height - you might've been too loud still - great advice has been given twice - you guys need an objective person out there in the room to decipher what the balance problem is - and make sure none of you get upset with the results.

As far as not being able to hear yourself up there (who said that?), the drums sound different from behind the kit and out there in the room. The Viper Room is one of the worst places to play in terms of hearing yourself. I played with a band there and the sound guy is very nice - and everyone in the room said the set sounded great - but I couldn't hear *anything* other than my "bass drum of doom" - and a bit of the keys and all bass...I couldn't react to the music - just had to go on autopilot a bit. Seriously just sounded like I was in someone's souped-up Geo Prizm with those ridiculous bass systems with my bass drum sounding like canons going off even when I just tapped it...

So play really soft if they ask you to play quiet - softer than you think - if it's not loud enough, it always feels better to be asked to play louder than to hear "play quieter!" for the 5th time...
 
Here's my story, I want honest opinions. What would you do?

Last Saturday we had a gig with my blues band.

Facts:
-The bar is notorious for wanting the music low. Acoustics are horrible
-Our band has 2000 watt PA, 3 monitors and 3 mics.
-bass players has a 300watt head and cab, guitar player has about the same (thats about as specific as I get)
-I play on PDP birch 4 pc, Zildjian Armands, Tama artwood custom Maple with maple hoops, no mic's (for this gig anyway).
-We are all older guys with admitted hearing loss in our own respected freqs.
_set list (blues/classic-Tulsa Time, Stormy Monday, Crossroads, Little Wing, Move it on over, Blue on Black)

So we are playing through the first set, and we were told to turn down. Now I am acoustic and I play with 5A sticks, I am A snappy player but i don't crush my instrument. I was playing with the sticks about 5" off the head to reduce volume.

(Here's a video of me playing in a louder environment).



So, when the guitarist turned down, he said he could not hear himself and was making mistakes (He has twin 150watt cabs one stage left and one stage right in stereo) because the drums were to loud. I was told to play with brushes.

So I did.

I challenged the guitar player afterwords telling him that for the acoustic instrument to play with brushes was not only ludicrous, but reduces my effectiveness (no double stroke rolls, etc.). He said he had been playing for a long time and knows what he's talking about and that me playing quieter was the right thing to do.

Now my problem is this. If He can hear himself, the BAssist should of turned down (We get constant complaints of him being too loud) and the PA should of turned down (our lead singer BELTS), rather than making the already acoustic drummer play with brushes.

AM I wrong? Or are the electric instruments suppose to be only as loud as the acoustic instruments?

thanks....

Drums that are acoustic are always gonna be loud and thats just a fact of life. If he is messing up then he needs to turn himself up. You can still play less loud if told to be less loud without playing with brushes.
 
Hi
Unplug the monitors...the whole band will turn down in 5 seconds!!!!!!! Denis

I think he's on to something here, just unplug the monitors, then the guitar, then the mics and bass and eventually you should be able to hear yourself quite well in the mix.

lol

-Jonathan
 
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