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  #1  
Old 05-23-2014, 06:46 PM
petey petey is offline
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Default Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Been thinking about it. All I have is a Korg MA 30 for home practice. Been looking at the Tama Rythym Watch

I have a great meter, I'm not playing any sequenced music, I just need a general idea of the BPM for maybe 10 songs because we play 5 sets a night of 50 different cover tunes.

Who plays with what?
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2014, 07:22 PM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I couldn't do it unless I could switch it on and off.

1. There are many songs where the fills are difficult to keep 100% in time. You may have great meter but it only takes a milisecond to get out of whack.

2. In a LOT of cases, you will be constantly trying to pull or push the lead man into your time when maybe you should be playing in his time.

I have a set up where I can turn a click track on/off with the strike of a stick. I sometimes use it to keep things in check. If the song sounds good, I just play it.

It is great to run a click in rehearsal though. It's humbling and will help everyone get on the same page.
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2014, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I was in one group where I checked tempos before most songs, and I used a korg Beatlab, because I could key in the tempo and press start. It wasn't ideal, because it tried to do too much... getting a straight click meant lowerng the sliders for the subdivisions it always tried to play. But, I only used it to get the bpm, not play to it, so I guess it wasn't so bad.

Soon after, I got a keypad metronome app for my iPad and that was actually much better. Soon after that, I stopped playing with that band. :)

So my answer is, get an app with a numeric keypad entry.

Bermuda
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2014, 08:34 PM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post

So my answer is, get an app with a numeric keypad entry.

Bermuda
Maybe alpha numeric so you can store the BPM's by song name
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2014, 09:14 PM
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Living Dead Drummer Living Dead Drummer is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I use a click live 100% of the time.

If it's a gig with no tracks I feed a signal in from a Yamaha DTX Drum Module to an 8 channel mixer. The whole system is hard wired together in a road case.
I also put a direct feed of the live band onto a separate channel. This way I can control the volume of the band vs. the click in my ears.

If it's a song I know the band struggles with in terms of tempo, I turn them down and play off the click. Otherwise the click sits low in the mix just to keep things steady.

It takes a lot of time and practice, but once you learn to groove with metronome it's great!
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
Maybe alpha numeric so you can store the BPM's by song name
Unless you can put the songs in setlist order and cursor with one click to the next tempo, it's faster to have a printed setlist with the songs in order and their BPM, and key those 2 or 3 #s and press start. 4 keystrokes tops... much easier than cursoring through an alphabettical song list.

If you do find an app that will store 30+ songs, you have to program it. And, you'll probably still use a paper setlist. Much simpler to be flexible and just key in tempos as needed.

Bermuda
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  #7  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:42 PM
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SgtThump SgtThump is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I now use an android app named "visual metronome." As the name implies, it's for playing to a visual display instead of a click sound. Takes some practice, but it's great.
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  #8  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:54 PM
cave. cave. is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I bought a used DB-90 and it works really well. Holds up to 50 presets and has options for foot pedals (start/stop & change presets). I think I got mine for $60
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2014, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by petey View Post
Been thinking about it. All I have is a Korg MA 30 for home practice. Been looking at the Tama Rythym Watch

I have a great meter, I'm not playing any sequenced music, I just need a general idea of the BPM for maybe 10 songs because we play 5 sets a night of 50 different cover tunes.

Who plays with what?

Clicks live are great for just that.

I have p[layed with preprogrammed tracks with clicks and without clicks, just the click etc etc.

Playing with clicks even for the first 8 bars removes the 'that song was faster' conversation.

If your meter is great (we can all improve though so keep working on it) then you should stay steady for the rest of the song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
I couldn't do it unless I could switch it on and off.

1. There are many songs where the fills are difficult to keep 100% in time. You may have great meter but it only takes a milisecond to get out of whack.

2. In a LOT of cases, you will be constantly trying to pull or push the lead man into your time when maybe you should be playing in his time.

I have a set up where I can turn a click track on/off with the strike of a stick. I sometimes use it to keep things in check. If the song sounds good, I just play it.

It is great to run a click in rehearsal though. It's humbling and will help everyone get on the same page.
Don't agree woth your first point. Thats why we practice with a click ALL the time. So that you work out the tendnacy to speed up/slow down in those tricky passages.

Vinnie, weckl, thomas lang and many others play very complex passages with great feel and in time. If you can't play it in time then practice more. Simple
If your band can't play with you when you are in time they aren't going to play nicely when you are playing without a click.

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Originally Posted by cave. View Post
I bought a used DB-90 and it works really well. Holds up to 50 presets and has options for foot pedals (start/stop & change presets). I think I got mine for $60
DB90 is great. Love it as a practice tool only thing is it is a bit quiet using it without an amp.


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  #10  
Old 05-24-2014, 12:01 AM
petey petey is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Thanks for the Insight, All!

I like the idea of a 'Visual Metronome' app, way cool. I just want something (for now) to be able to punch in the BPM and hear the click for a few seconds, get the idea and then GO.
For these next couple gigs, since I have no In Ear headphone (and like to wear ear filters to protect my hearing) I may just use the little Korg for a quick reference before each song

Eventually, that DB-90 looks like it might be a new purchase for me!
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  #11  
Old 05-24-2014, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Why drum if you need a click? Never understood that.
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  #12  
Old 05-24-2014, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Quote:
Unless you can put the songs in setlist order and cursor with one click to the next tempo, it's faster to have a printed setlist with the songs in order and their BPM
I'm technologically spoiled and lazy. I like to push buttons :) If I was using a tempo setting tool, it would be laid out per set list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MCM View Post
Why drum if you need a click? Never understood that.
To teach you to drum better.?


Quote:
Don't agree woth your first point. Thats why we practice with a click ALL the time. So that you work out the tendnacy to speed up/slow down in those tricky passages.
If you have never had problem playing difficult fills with a click, why do you need one?


Quote:
Vinnie, weckl, thomas lang and many others play very complex passages with great feel and in time.
And that relates to anything or anyone here because ? It always cracks me up when people refer to Vinnie, like you are his buddy. I don't know who he is but I assume he is a WAY above average pro drummer. (hmmmmm,,,,new thread idea. Look for it :)


Quote:
If your band can't play with you when you are in time they aren't going to play nicely when you are playing without a click.
False. VOLUMES of excellent music is played every day without perfect tempo. Not even a trained ear will pick up slight BPM changes. An average listener can't even pick up a 10 BPM variation throughout a song.
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2014, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by SgtThump View Post
I now use an android app named "visual metronome." As the name implies, it's for playing to a visual display instead of a click sound. Takes some practice, but it's great.
A few times at practice, I was watching the digital equalizer readout and noticed that the click in the mix has it's own space that's visible on the levels readout. I figured out where the constant click was represented on the meter, and was able to follow the music by "watching" the click even though I had taken it out of my ears. I actually much preferred not having that damn noise in my ear, and playing really didn't feel awkward at all.

I suspect I've sort of been doing the same thing for a while now. Ever looked up into the audience and watched them all dancing or bobbing along, then "followed" it for a while? I sometimes do the same thing if I see a guitar or bass player tapping their foot in time as they play. It's cool to have visual representation that you're on the same page.
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2014, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by MCM View Post
Why drum if you need a click? Never understood that.
Using a metronome to recall a pre-agreed-upon tempo is not the same as playing to a click.

Playing to a click is done to keep the drummer (and the rest of the band) in sync with a pre-recorded track or video.

If a drummer is being forced to use a click because his time is poor, then there must be a reason he hasn't already been replaced.

Bermuda
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2014, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
If a drummer is being forced to use a click because his time is poor, then there must be a reason he hasn't already been replaced.
I've been able to stay on board more than a few projects with my perfectly timed, hilarious, and immaculately humble jokes.

Guitarist: Hey!... This drummer sucks!

Me: Did you guys hear the one about the depressed drummer that attempted suicide? ... He threw himself behind a train!

Guitarist: LOL! What were we talking about, again?



Something like that, anyway.
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  #16  
Old 05-24-2014, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

There's a difference between fluctuating a little, and egregious speeding-up or slowing down. If the variance can be detected by another member whose parts are easily affected by fluctuating tempos - guitarists and singers tend to be most sensitive to this - then it's a problem.

Bermuda
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  #17  
Old 05-24-2014, 03:02 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I have tempo advance. I have a song list on paper with a tempo written next to each song. With that app , you can just tap it on the iPhone and it shows the tempo. Keep on adjusting your tapping until you reach the desire number and voilą !!!
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  #18  
Old 05-24-2014, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I used to use a click on my phone (believe the app was by FrozenApe) that had good setlist support but the app was a total mess on Android. Now I just perform without one because I practiced enough to be confident in my time, but I use Mobile Metronome whenever I just need a quick check. If it had good setlist support, if I needed a click, and if it weren't important enough to use my Macbook with backing tracks, I'd use it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
If you have never had problem playing difficult fills with a click, why do you need one?
This is like saying "if you never had trouble getting up stairs in crutches, why do you need them?". It could be a psychological effect, a simple matter of support, or something else. Note that I am not using "crutch" in the negative sense as it is commonly used.

Notice also that Dave said that we practice with clicks to work out the errors, he wasn't saying that that means we work it out until it's perfect and then some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
False. VOLUMES of excellent music is played every day without perfect tempo. Not even a trained ear will pick up slight BPM changes. An average listener can't even pick up a 10 BPM variation throughout a song.
Gradually, anyway, and his original point wasn't that- it was that if bandmates have issues playing together when the drummer is playing to a click, they are going to likely have even more issues if the drummer isn't.
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  #19  
Old 05-24-2014, 06:43 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Quote:
Notice also that Dave said that we practice with clicks to work out the errors, he wasn't saying that that means we work it out until it's perfect and then some.
Miscommunication somewhere I guess.

He said he didn't agree that
Quote:
There are many songs where the fills are difficult to keep 100% in time. You may have great meter but it only takes a milisecond to get out of whack[
That made no sense to me because the statements seem factual.


Quote:
his original point wasn't that- it was that if bandmates have issues playing together when the drummer is playing to a click, they are going to likely have even more issues if the drummer isn't.

From a different point of view (mine :) ), it would be easier because the drummer could simply adjust to their tempo. It's been my experience that it is a LOT easier playing without a click. The music will certainly move around a bit. Perhaps it's just fing a comfortable level based on many individual factors.
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  #20  
Old 05-24-2014, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post




If you have never had problem playing difficult fills with a click, why do you need one?

I'm not saying i;ve never sped up or down and I don't have perfect time. I don't think anyone does. What i was stressing is that we practice with a click so that we can perform passages that are hard in time. If it is not in time then we aren't doing our job right. IF a fill is dragged, rushed or stutters then the band notices and the feel goes. Irregardless of a click being there or not if you can't play it without stumbling through it and messing up the time then you need to work on it more. I practice with a click in everything i practice to help me play better time when I play without one. It also prepares me for the studio work i do and anything else where a click is required.


And that relates to anything or anyone here because ? It always cracks me up when people refer to Vinnie, like you are his buddy. I don't know who he is but I assume he is a WAY above average pro drummer. (hmmmmm,,,,new thread idea. Look for it :)

I am not his buddy however he is referred to by his first name in the same way Tony and Buddy are...what's wrong with that? Everyone know;s who I am talking about. He may be way above the average pro drummer but he also plays ideas and concepts far and above what most drummer can play and he does it in time.
Just because we aren't as good as Vinnie or Weckl or Jojo Mayer is no excuse not to play in time and to excuse messing up a complex fill or passage.





False. VOLUMES of excellent music is played every day without perfect tempo. Not even a trained ear will pick up slight BPM changes. An average listener can't even pick up a 10 BPM variation throughout a song.
Lots of great music is played with and without clicks, live and in the studio. The ability to play everything with and without a click is an essential tool for a drummer today. Some songs can move and sound great some can't. The OP asked if he should use a click for those songs where the tempo needs to be exact.


From a different point of view (mine :) ), it would be easier because the drummer could simply adjust to their tempo. It's been my experience that it is a LOT easier playing without a click. The music will certainly move around a bit. Perhaps it's just fing a comfortable level based on many individual factors.[/quote]

If a band can't follow your time then you are always on a losing battle. If a bass player drags and then you go to meet him and then he drags again and you move to him again the song will slow down and drag which is totally different from a laid back feel.

Replies in bold

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  #21  
Old 05-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Quote:
]we practice with a click so that we can perform passages that are hard in time.
Same here. It's a great tool !


Quote:
I am not his buddy however he is referred to by his first name in the same way Tony and Buddy are...what's wrong with that?
I didn't say it was wrong. I said it is funny :)

Quote:
The OP asked if he should use a click for those songs where the tempo needs to be exact.
You are reading words that aren't there. All I read was I just need a general idea of the BPM for maybe 10 songs and I just want something (for now) to be able to punch in the BPM and hear the click for a few seconds, get the idea and then GO.

Quote:
If a band can't follow your time then you are always on a losing battle.
I'm not in the "follow the drummer" school. I'm in the "band plays together" school.

There will be times when a player is playing a difficult segment while trying to sing something rhythmically unrelated and the tempo will suffer slightly. Other band members will instinctively make unrecognizable adjustments and it will appear perfect.


I feel that I'm the flexible adhesive that helps hold things together.

I have several instances where, for whatever reason, the person fronting the song seems to want to play at a certain tempo. At first I will try to guide the song to what it is supposed to be but, after experiencing the same thing time after time, I will just let it go where it wants to go and it will be fine.
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  #22  
Old 05-24-2014, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
I have several instances where, for whatever reason, the person fronting the song seems to want to play at a certain tempo.
Perhaps the main reason is that the singer/guitarist knows that the song feels and sounds best in a very narrow tempo range. He/she wants to make sure that the song always starts at the pre-determined tempo, unaffected by anyone's perceptions skewed by exhaustion, excitement, alcohol, or anything else that might prevent the count-off from being correct.

Look at it this way: once the tempo is agreed upon, and you start and keep it there, nobody can ever accuse you of counting it too fast or slow. If they're having a problem, they have to look at themselves. Or, establish a new tempo at the next rehearsal.

I was in a band where a couple of established tempos were re-adjusted later, but only by 1 or 2 BPM. Sometimes that makes a noticeable difference.

Bermuda
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  #23  
Old 05-24-2014, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
Perhaps the main reason is that the singer/guitarist knows that the song feels and sounds best in a very narrow tempo range.
Absolutely. It's the frontman's song in most cases. If it sounds good, I'm certainly not going to step on it.


Quote:
I was in a band where a couple of established tempos were re-adjusted later, but only by 1 or 2 BPM. Sometimes that makes a noticeable difference.
Those are some good ears !!
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:57 PM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
I couldn't do it unless I could switch it on and off.

1. There are many songs where the fills are difficult to keep 100% in time. You may have great meter but it only takes a milisecond to get out of whack.

2. In a LOT of cases, you will be constantly trying to pull or push the lead man into your time when maybe you should be playing in his time.

I have a set up where I can turn a click track on/off with the strike of a stick. I sometimes use it to keep things in check. If the song sounds good, I just play it.

It is great to run a click in rehearsal though. It's humbling and will help everyone get on the same page.
To your first point, I don't think that's true at all. All you have to do to keep time perfectly with the click during a fill is to keep your left foot doing quarter or eighth notes. If you are doing four bars of time then a fill then during the fill you keep the time going with the hats, and make sure the time is covered while your hands are free to explore the snare and toms, etc. Eventually you just feel the pulse naturally and can develop playing free yet completely controlled at the same time which helps both click and non-click playing.

Last edited by _Leviathan_; 05-24-2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason: Grammar
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2014, 12:55 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by _Leviathan_ View Post
. All you have to do to keep time perfectly with the click during a fill is to keep your left foot doing quarter or eighth notes..

Heh heh....all I have to do huh?

Most of the stuff I play is very simple and fills are a no brainer.

In a lot of more complicated music that I hear (and occasionally try to play), there is no way my left foot is going to do anything important during the offbeat syncopated fills. All I could do is hope that everyone else is keeping track .:)


Also, in an attempt to to validate my point, the number one issue I've seen/heard in live bands is the tempo errors during or coming out of fills. It's really quite common so it must be difficult. Actually, it may be the #2 issue right behind playing too loud :)
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  #26  
Old 05-25-2014, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

Okay, anyway, to the OP's question:

I have a Yamaha 8-channel mixer that I use for in-ear monitoring. I plug my phone with Visual Metronome into channel 7 or 8 and the live feed goes into channel 1 (with compression and eq). This allows me to either tap in a tempo or dial in a tempo prior to clicking off the song. I usually just listen to two or three bars of tempo and start it off as close to it as I can, which is plenty close enough for government work (and guitarists). I have the luxury of a great rhythmic acoustic guitar player who has no problem keeping time on his own, and so once we lock in I don't worry about it much.

I only have one song in our current set I like to set the click and keep it going throughout -- it's a moderate paced song with sixteenths on the hat and straight fours, and I don't want to speed it up. But by and large I don't bother with clicks live. I practice with clicks and click-steady music to not have that problem.
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Old 05-25-2014, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I used to use an ipod with earbuds. I made a click for each song we played, and I memorized where the next track button was, so I would be able to change the track with the ipod in my pocket. There were 2 songs that we played back to back with no break, so I made a longer track for those 2 songs.
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:43 AM
New Tricks New Tricks is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
Okay, anyway, to the OP's question:

.
Noted :)

And, apologies for my role in taking this off topic.
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2014, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
It's really quite common so it must be difficult.
I think that's more an issue of drummers who haven't practiced their fills or are trying to show off more (feeds into the #1 issue you mention). It's inexperience, plain and simple. Understandably, the demographic of this forum is going to at least care a little more about that, at least enough to join a forum, so we may have less experience with it than those who maybe are a bit earlier in the cycle.
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2014, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

You could also look at the Tempo REF.
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  #31  
Old 05-25-2014, 10:53 AM
_Leviathan_ _Leviathan_ is offline
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Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
Heh heh....all I have to do huh?

Also, in an attempt to to validate my point, the number one issue I've seen/heard in live bands is the tempo errors during or coming out of fills. It's really quite common so it must be difficult. Actually, it may be the #2 issue right behind playing too loud :)
This is because these drummers haven't internalized the quarter or eighth note pulse and don't know where the fills they play land in time (basically just guessing and hoping for the best). If a drummer can play solid time for grooves but loses time going in and coming out of fills then they need to work on time during fills and transitioning between fills and grooves, especially for more complicated licks.

I know because I used to have this problem, years ago. Fills should add to or contrast grooves and never interrupt the overall continuous flow, whether simple or complex.
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:35 PM
adamosmianski adamosmianski is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 267
Default Re: Using a Metronome/Click on stage

I guess it really depends on the scenario you're playing in. I haven't used a click live for a few years. I just used to use the good ol' Dr. Beat. The old one with the big yellow wheel, and it suited me fine. But I was playing with it in my ears the whole time, not just to grab a tempo.

If you're in a quieter situation where you're worried about the 'nome being heard then I would definitely consider the Tama Rhythm watch, as it's got that cool function where you hold down a button and it pulses so you can feel the click rather than hear it.

Like Bermuda said, if you're looking for speed I would get an app or something where you can quickly punch in the numbers.
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