Why?
- Thread starter Sweetnoise
- Start date
Deathmetalconga
Platinum Member
There should be a push-pull, but sometimes it is too much push (speeding up) or too much pull (slowing down). A metronome keeps time in proper alignment. It no more stops "breathing" than correct tuning.
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
Yes and no. If the band's musicianship is high then the tempo can be manipulated like dynamics to better express the song - more the case with some genres/songs than others. At the highest levels playing metronomic time all the time is unsophisticated.
However, for many bands (often weekend warriors) playing with a metronome will sound stilted because, as Mike said, the players need to push and pull the drummer around. My band's keyboardist even complained about "machine time" when I was using a met to get initial starting tempos lol - a click would be a nightmare for him. So my band would sound far better without a click than with one - I have to adjust for them or it's a train wreck.
My job is to make them sound good so I adjust and occasionally make comments. I don't see my role as teaching them to play cleaner time - I'm not their Mum. If I was serious I would have worked harder on my own time and left long ago but they are nice people and I enjoy playing with them.
These are the tradeoffs people make. If you're serious and want to play music for a living then you work hard to make sure your own time is in order and find players who have done the same ... either that or you find a bunch of wild characters and try to become the next Nirvana
Stalwart_Pandora-Chris
Silver Member
Both my bands refuse to use metronomes so usually if I can sneak away I'll stick a metronome on my headphones and play away on time. It pushes them to stay in time too, and they don't know it. The lead guitarist in one of my bands has REALLY good timing though and I basically taught him the basics of guitar, our rhythm guitarist is a trained snare drummer and can't play in time without keeping his feet going. Which I pushed him to, I'd basically tap the beat and he'd be like "Got it!" and taps his feet.
But my other band, our singer seems to think we're "too punk" for anything. And tbh, we're not really that punk if I'm playing weird patterns on the drums. Hahahaha
But my other band, our singer seems to think we're "too punk" for anything. And tbh, we're not really that punk if I'm playing weird patterns on the drums. Hahahaha
Sweetnoise
Junior Member
Dang!!! Thats some effective feedback. Thanks all.
OK, so is there an effective way to CALL IT when a serious time blunder occurs that wont hurt them emotionally. Since that seems to be the whole thing for them. Usually I stop, grab some eye contact with one or more of them (11 players) But, others insist "Just keeep playin" Those points simply suck.
I think I know the answer............But thanks anyway for chiming in.
OK, so is there an effective way to CALL IT when a serious time blunder occurs that wont hurt them emotionally. Since that seems to be the whole thing for them. Usually I stop, grab some eye contact with one or more of them (11 players) But, others insist "Just keeep playin" Those points simply suck.
I think I know the answer............But thanks anyway for chiming in.
Deathmetalconga
Platinum Member
Yes and no. If the band's musicianship is high then the tempo can be manipulated like dynamics to better express the song - more the case with some genres/songs than others. At the highest levels playing metronomic time all the time is unsophisticated.
However, for many bands (often weekend warriors) playing with a metronome will sound stilted because, as Mike said, the players need to push and pull the drummer around. My band's keyboardist even complained about "machine time" when I was using a met to get initial starting tempos lol - a click would be a nightmare for him. So my band would sound far better without a click than with one - I have to adjust for them or it's a train wreck.
My job is to make them sound good so I adjust and occasionally make comments. I don't see my role as teaching them to play cleaner time - I'm not their Mum. If I was serious I would have worked harder on my own time and left long ago but they are nice people and I enjoy playing with them.
These are the tradeoffs people make. If you're serious and want to play music for a living then you work hard to make sure your own time is in order and find players who have done the same ... either that or you find a bunch of wild characters and try to become the next Nirvana
If you are consciously varying the time (as you said, if the band's musicianship is high), that's one thing. But there is such a thing as sloppy, lazy, incompetent playing, and it sometimes hides behind "I need to be creative and push and pull." I've heard terrific and terrible music made with and without a metronome. The only real way to tell if it works on not is to hear it or play it. And I have hear you band's playing and it's in the Lterrific" category.
The drummer's duties include steady, reliable time that fits the needs of the music and guides the band. Notice I did not say "perfect and unwavering time." But if it wavers, it should be with reason and purpose. Personally, I do not think any competent musician should object to playing with a metronome from time to time if someone in the band thinks they need it. I hate metronomes because they do distract me but the discipline is needed sometimes.
I have a metronome called a Beat Bug that fits in the ear is looks just like a Bluetooth. That
may be one solution. Or connect it to one of those Butt Shaker things.
Pollyanna
Platinum Member
Cheers DMC. I think genre is important here. There's a school of thought that the most important thing is not perfect time but that, if the tempo varies, the band does it together.
To me, using a click in jazz or blues doesn't make sense. Certainly our keys player refers to BB King when justifying his dislike of metronomes but I know it's really just a defence because his time IS wobbly ... metronomes make him look bad and he juggles too many balls in life to go back and sort it out.
However, I have a responsibility to start the songs at the most comfortable tempo, and I haven't always gotten it right. The boys will play better time if my starting tempo and subsequent consistency is good - if I get it wrong, no one has the musical power to correct it. I know it's not ideal but I kind of enjoy the challenge and responsibility ... masochism?
Gigs can be challenging with the adrenaline and it's easy to "hear" tempos faster than they should be. I recently worked out a way of setting tempos with a met, by quietly singing the busiest vocal line of the song before the count - if that feels comfortable then all will be well. Not much worse for a singer than to be forced to rush and be denied the ability to add nuance.
MattA
Senior Member
I agree, that's a great way of telling if the song is too fast. Forced/rushed vocals stick out like a sore thumb, much more than other instruments.
Ethan01
Senior Member
I think the big disconnect is, no one is suggesting for musicians to play "sloppy". There's nothing better to me than a tight band that grooves. Nothing in there requires a met. No one's suggesting not to use one as a practice tool. But as a BAND practice tool, I think it hurts in the long run. The living breathing BAND needs to find it's own rhythm. Yep, that usually takes a lot of work and individual talent.
Cheers DMC. I think genre is important here. There's a school of thought that the most important thing is not perfect time but that, if the tempo varies, the band does it together.
To me, using a click in jazz or blues doesn't make sense. Certainly our keys player refers to BB King when justifying his dislike of metronomes but I know it's really just a defence because his time IS wobbly ... metronomes make him look bad and he juggles too many balls in life to go back and sort it out.
However, I have a responsibility to start the songs at the most comfortable tempo, and I haven't always gotten it right. The boys will play better time if my starting tempo and subsequent consistency is good - if I get it wrong, no one has the musical power to correct it. I know it's not ideal but I kind of enjoy the challenge and responsibility ... masochism?
Gigs can be challenging with the adrenaline and it's easy to "hear" tempos faster than they should be. I recently worked out a way of setting tempos with a met, by quietly singing the busiest vocal line of the song before the count - if that feels comfortable then all will be well. Not much worse for a singer than to be forced to rush and be denied the ability to add nuance.
Deathmetalconga
Platinum Member
I think some musicians are careless and do not care if they play sloppy and may use the "I gotta groove free" excuse. In some situations, having the entire band play to a metronome may be a very good way to discover what is causing unintentional
inconsistencies in time. I think any mature and competent musician will welcome the discipline of a metronome in the right time and place and for the right reasons. I know I do. There is no more shame in using one than in using a tuner or other tool.
brentcn
Platinum Member
Looks like we're debating your topic more than answering your question at the moment!
11 players is a lot to wrangle, so you're obviously better off dealing with the band leader in private. You'll have to judge if making the switch to a click track is worth it, but I feel that even someone who is resistant at first will come to appreciate the experience of refining their sense of time. A band can definitely learn to groove with a click, but usually starts by simply (painfully) learning to stay with it. During this time, things will sound awkward, but it's a process, and not everyone may want to make it through.
Recording one rehearsal with the click, and another without, won't solve your problems. The band will NOT play well at first. Maybe suggest 6 months with the click (and settle for 3!). Then record the rehearsals both ways, and see what's what.
After years of playing with bands with a click, I discovered that my own playing, however steady it was, had to change. You need to communicate the time from the click to the band, rather than just play along to it. Play so confidently, it seems to everyone else that there is no click.