push-pull (open-close) technique

..oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments..


No offense, but am i looking like a child that needs some guidance on how to read or something like that..?

You ask a question about a certain technique, wondering why you are not getting the same results as all the YT-videos that you watch and asking if there is maybe something wrong with your physical condition or if there is another sort of magic going on, because you have been practicing allready the whole amount of a few weeks..

Just come back half a year from now..
 
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How did it come to Moeller?

Wow, I'm glad I didn't mention Moeller, as I was going to. To me, the whole push/pull thing and Moeller technique seem so similar I would have thought a discussion of one would involve a discussion of the other, if only to clarify how they're different.

I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both.

According the Bill Bruford, at a clinic I attended, the two things you need to succeed as a drummer are a free throw and a pair of velvet trousers.
 
Wow, I'm glad I didn't mention Moeller, as I was going to. To me, the whole push/pull thing and Moeller technique seem so similar I would have thought a discussion of one would involve a discussion of the other, if only to clarify how they're different.

I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both.

According the Bill Bruford, at a clinic I attended, the two things you need to succeed as a drummer are a free throw and a pair of velvet trousers.

"Free throw-rebound-pull back with fingers" is what I use on ride at fast tempos. I mean like "unswung" swing pattern around 300 bpm. But I cannot play for continuous 8 notes using same kind of motion. Therefore I thought practising push-pull might help.

The basic idea of morller and push-pull is indeed similar, but push-pull essentially involves fingers, doesn't it? That's why I am surprised to see moeller here.
 
The concept is the same, it's just a smaller motion.

There are differences and snall things that may not work depending on or hands, how German or French you go or whatever. Sometimes a tiny change in angle, maybe with where you hold the stick makes all the difference.

There's all sorts of stuff. If you play thin hats maybe you're not closing them properly? etc...
 
Moeller is a good place to start because large motions are easier to master than small ones. Push-pull is, as he pointed out, essentially Moeller, except the wrist is doing the throw instead of the whole arm.

As far as ways to practice push-pull, here are some good ones—

1. Practice extremely slowly, on a pillow.
2. Practice downbeat-accented triplets, so the downstroke is the downbeat on one group of 3 notes, then the upstroke gets the downbeat on the next group of 3 notes.
3. Move between hats, toms, and snare while keeping up a steady stream of push-pull notes. Start REALLY slow with this.
4. Do 8 notes (or 4, or 16) of alternating single strokes with push-pull, then immediately, with no break in between, do the same number of notes with double strokes, also using push pull. Try to make the doubles and singles sound the same. This is hard, start slowly. (I adapted this one from Joe Morello)

Thanks a lot! I never practised it on a pillow. I will try those steps.
 
No offense, but am i looking like a child that needs some guidance on how to read or something like that..?

You ask a question about a certain technique, wondering why you are not getting the same results as all the YT-videos that you watch and asking if there is maybe something wrong with your physical condition or if there is another sort of magic going on, because you have been practicing allready the whole amount of a few weeks..

Just come back half a year from now..

Shameless me, how did I dare ask a question after practising only a few weeks and seeing no results? I am very sorry sir!
 
"Free throw-rebound-pull back with fingers" is what I use on ride at fast tempos. I mean like "unswung" swing pattern around 300 bpm. But I cannot play for continuous 8 notes using same kind of motion. Therefore I thought practising push-pull might help.

The basic idea of morller and push-pull is indeed similar, but push-pull essentially involves fingers, doesn't it? That's why I am surprised to see moeller here.

The push-pull has a wrist pumping motion analogous to moeller
 
The concept is the same, it's just a smaller motion.

There are differences and snall things that may not work depending on or hands, how German or French you go or whatever. Sometimes a tiny change in angle, maybe with where you hold the stick makes all the difference.

There's all sorts of stuff. If you play thin hats maybe you're not closing them properly? etc...

Indeed, usually it's a tiny detail that blocks everything. And usually by practising, you overcome it without even noticing what you corrected. Push-pull trchnique seems to have good potential for such traps :)
 
Sure, but moeller does not involve fingers, does it (not a rhetorical question, I really don't know)?

Analysis paralysis. The non involvement of fingers doesn't matter. It's just Pivot A and Pivot B.
 
..I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both..


Correct, with the note that a Moeller stroke always more or less starts from a whipping motion, allthough there are also people (Mayer) sometimes speaking about a pumping motion..

The only difference in my opinion between playing Low-Moeller with only 1 controlled bounce, compared to push/pull (from German grip), is that with Moeller you only rely on a bounce as being the second note, while with push/pull you control that second note with a quick closing of the fingers when bringing the wrist back up..

Playing push/pull from French grip is a different story btw..
 
If you're playing double stroke roll rudiments, would you be inclined to use push-pull to get clean rolls, but use Moeller for higher tempos?
 
If you're playing double stroke roll rudiments, would you be inclined to use push-pull to get clean rolls, but use Moeller for higher tempos?

It is quite possible to use 100% push-pull for double-stroke rolls even up to 130 bpm or so, even on a fairly slack head. The trade off is volume and stick height. Adding a little arm in will let you play louder.
 
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