WhatisthisIdon'teven (In praise of "low-end" equipment)

It seems my fears have been confirmed.

Sixteen years as the son of two extremely deeply musical teachers has taught me many things, among them how to listen to a sound and pick it apart. Please, please, please don't measure a musician's skills by their age.

I do not think my ZBTs sound good. I see a difference between liking the way something sounds and thinking it sounds good, but that's kind of an abstract thing to say.

Obviously, certain cymbals are better suited for certain musical styles and mixes, but with today's world of recording, that matters little.

I don't think anyone is trying to use your age against you here. It's more a matter that you've made a statement saying you're happy with the sounds you're getting from lower line cymbals........most have replied saying "good for you", but also adding they have their own ideas about what sounds good or not. I've never heard a ZBT yet that comes remotely close to an A, A Custom, Z Custom, K etc etc etc. That's nothing more than preferance. Your statement is true for you, but I find it unworkable.....no-one's right or wrong here....just different tastes involved.

That said, I would be really interested to see if your playing your ZBT's at 21....at 30.....at 50.
 
it all depends on what sound you're going for. if you're going for a trashy sound then trashy gear will be the call. for example, there's a really good drummer around here who plays for a band named "dish". he plays on a kit literally made of junk, i mean like plastic paint cans and random pieces of junkyard metal. he rocks that kit and makes the music sound awesome! there's another super hot drummer around here named anthony cole (he's somehow related to nat king cole). he plays with badly broken cymbals with huge cracks in them, but he's so good it doesn't matter. in his hands, the cymbals have a unique sound and character that works extremely well for him. personally, i would not want to play on junk, but junky gear can work well in some situations.
 
I understand that no one is using my age against me, but underestimating me kind of... gets under my skin, to say the least. Saying I haven't learned how to listen yet is, initially in my eyes, an insult. I apologize for maybe reflecting this in my posts.

And another point: If a good drummer keeps his old, low-end cymbals, and his contemporaries continue to upgrade their kits, relative to the other players, he is unique. Obviously, he'll be missing out on some things, but he will certainly sound different.

I have a cymbal, completely unmarked, beaten to a pulp, dirty, signs of a crack on the edge, warped, wobbly, paper thin at the edge- I love the sound. And I will tell you one thing, that none of you can possibly copy that sound. And honestly, I suppose I'm teasing you with that information, because it sets my kt apart from others. I suppose that's my general point, money or looks or brand shouldn't be an object of building a sound.

And I'm sure many of you agree with that.
 
I understand that no one is using my age against me, but underestimating me kind of... gets under my skin, to say the least. Saying I haven't learned how to listen yet is, initially in my eyes, an insult. I apologize for maybe reflecting this in my posts.

And another point: If a good drummer keeps his old, low-end cymbals, and his contemporaries continue to upgrade their kits, relative to the other players, he is unique. Obviously, he'll be missing out on some things, but he will certainly sound different.

I have a cymbal, completely unmarked, beaten to a pulp, dirty, signs of a crack on the edge, warped, wobbly, paper thin at the edge- I love the sound. And I will tell you one thing, that none of you can possibly copy that sound. And honestly, I suppose I'm teasing you with that information, because it sets my kt apart from others. I suppose that's my general point, money or looks or brand shouldn't be an object of building a sound.
And I'm sure many of you agree with that.

No need to be insulted mate, that wasn't anyone's intention.....at least as far as I can see. But, you've got people who've been playing for 10, 20, 30 odd years saying they prefer the sound of higher end cymbals. That doesn't make them right, but it certainly doesn't make their point invalid, purely because you're happy with ZBT's etc. What I liked at 16, for the most part is vastly different to what I like at 37.....that's not a derogatory statement by any means......it's just a fact of life.

As for the statement in bold...........that is a very fair point to make.....of that we are in agreeance.
 
There are a few different categories of equipment and you have to look at them different ways.

hardware - there is no skimping in this category. I tried to buy a sound percussion snare stand and boom stand for my practice kit, and it would not even hold up in any position. The same thing effects cheaper drumsets, I have seen gretsch catalinas with bent hoops, says nothing about the drum shell, but if your going to replace a hoop don't buy the same thin cheap hoops.

heads - there are two types of heads good heads and bad heads. I don't know how many times i've came across a bad sounding snare with the original snare side head and the glue is all cracked and the head is pulled out on one side. this is a simple fix. heads are consumables just like sticks and they need to be replaced. Everybody here will tell you you can make a cheap set sound great with new heads.

cymbals - cymbals are a big area of contention and opinion. Everybody has what they like and it is a popular category becuase you can go into a store and get a new cymbal for relatively little money (compared to a whole set) and come out feeling warm and fuzzy. Of course there are lots of tastes and budgets just look at all the different lines of cymbals and all of the different makers of cymbals. I recorded my first two records with a sabian b8 ride and it still sounds great on those records. I have changed rides a few times over since then, but that isn't a bad thing. I've also played all different kinds of music and you don't want to limit yourself to one sound of cymbals for everything you do. I was really lucky to get a hand-me down set of zildjian quick beats as my first hi-hats, and to me that is what HATS sound like. I went on a year long mission trying to find different hi-hat sound and I kept coming back to quickbeats and liking them better. So now I have two pairs of quickbeats.

drums - I agree that low end drums can sound great. I bought a tama rockstar steel snare off another drummer for $25 bucks and it sounds incredible. I've even had other drummers borrow it for studio recordings becuase they love it so much. as long as drum is round and it's edges true you can get it to sound great. new heads will solve most problems. The problems I have with low-end drums is generally problems with the hardware and not the actual wood.
 
drums - I agree that low end drums can sound great. I bought a tama rockstar steel snare off another drummer for $25 bucks and it sounds incredible. I've even had other drummers borrow it for studio recordings becuase they love it so much. as long as drum is round and it's edges true you can get it to sound great. new heads will solve most problems. The problems I have with low-end drums is generally problems with the hardware and not the actual wood.
I agree with everything you said, but I like to add that with drums it also very much depends on the sound you're going for. If you want a dead sound for certain rock types, or rock'n'roll, etc, I almost dare say the drum quality doesn't even matter that much.
But if you're going for say a rather high-pitched, resonant jazz sound, the quality and processing of the shell will matter very much.
 
I understand that no one is using my age against me, but underestimating me kind of... gets under my skin, to say the least. Saying I haven't learned how to listen yet is, initially in my eyes, an insult. I apologize for maybe reflecting this in my posts.

And another point: If a good drummer keeps his old, low-end cymbals, and his contemporaries continue to upgrade their kits, relative to the other players, he is unique. Obviously, he'll be missing out on some things, but he will certainly sound different.

My generalizations have nothing to do with age , sex or nationality. I don't believe any of us are underestimating you, in fact how can we estimate you at all, be it under or over because we don't know you. If you take anything we say as an insult, you'll just have to get over it, the comments were not intended to"get under your skin". Everyone has to pay their dues when it come to being able to hear, it all comes with experience. There are people just picking up sticks when in their 30's, 40's and 50's. Most of these people don't really know what they are listening to. This is the same when a person is only exposed to a certain set of drums or cymbals for most of their career, they really have no idea what's really out there and the improvements these new additions can make to their sound. I was very fortunate when my dad first started to teach me drums about fifty years ago. I was able to use his Ludwig kit and his Zildjian cymbals. He taught me how to hear and what to listen for in terms of tuning a kit and how to get out of it exactly what you're looking for. Having played higher end equipment from the start, it would be very difficult for me to transgress into something different than to were my tastes evolved. This doesn't keep me away from trying out Sabian B8's, Zildjian ZHT's or some lower end Paistes, they all have their uses, but they do not fit in the scheme of thing as it pretends to me at this date and time.

Purchase, use and enjoy the equipment that you can now afford and latter on, your tastes will most definitely change if you stay interested in drumming.

Dennis
 
You know, if someone were to give me a set of high end DW's, I would be terrrified I'd screw them up, like drop and crack a shell, scratch the finish or wrap, knick the bearing edges, etc. etc. etc. Or they would get stolen. Same thing with a Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Audi, BMW.... Give me a slightly used Chevy Pickup truck that runs great and I'm happy. Same for my drums...a bit old, a bit scratched, kinda used, still sound great.

The first time I scratched the wrap or finish on a high end DW drum, I'd cry....
 
It is true that some drummers get too obsessed about gear. I know I have been guilty of that myself when I was younger.

But don't mistake discussions of drum gear as a point of view that lower end gear is bad.
Many of us discuss drums, cymbals and quality simply because it's fun to do. As a drummer, it's fun to talk about gear with other drummers. But that doesn't mean I think badly of anyone who doesn't have top of the line stuff.

One of the more incredible drummers I saw in a club once had a mish-mash of drums that looked like he found them in a dumpster. I have no clue what brands they were, or even what era they were from, as everything looked old and beat up.Nothing matched. But this guy played like Vinnie Colaiuta, and sounded amazing.
 
Drums are like running shoes, If you have to wear a logo on them, then I guess you won't get what I'm saying. Its a musical instrument not a kudos tool. If you like what you play then you have a good kit. end of......


Don't play the drums, play the song!!
 
Drums are like running shoes, If you have to wear a logo on them, then I guess you won't get what I'm saying. Its a musical instrument not a kudos tool. If you like what you play then you have a good kit. end of......


Don't play the drums, play the song!!

great comment, i get razzed by other drummers a lot because i play a joey jordison sig snare, i dont particularly like joey jordison nor care about his name being on my drum. Its no where near being a high end snare but what i do know is for sure is when i have a evans genera dry skin on it and its tuned up nice and tight, the sound sends a chill of satisfaction up my spine :)
 
I'm lucky enough to have a good set of high end cymbals, yet a little B8 splash takes pride of place along side exotic hand hammered Black Sea stablemates. My Pearl piccolo snare is on my kit 95% of the time. The high end hand made maple stave snare stays in the case except for specific applications. Enough said!
 
All very good posts.
This is my opinion: Good sound is not just about budget.
Yes I went for an inexpensive kit, but as it was said before, most of today's drums are well made.
The hardware is very important for durability, especially if one tears down a lot.
Good heads and tuning are important, but also the sticks, the ambient as well as the drummer's ability are relevant.
Now cymbals.
The thing about drum kits is that it is a collection of instruments and totally up to the drummer to choose the infinite combinations not only of the various elements, but also their location in the kit.
Some drummers will go with many instruments including ching rings, cowbells wood block etch. Others will have very few drums and cymbals.
A lot will depend on the music one likes or how many different sounds one wants to produce. I like a small kit.
The labels on the drums and cymbals are a quick means of identifying quality (through the experience and endorsement of drummers we respect). However, one can find by chance or by intense trial and error the inexpensive wonder drum or cymbal that can put to shame any high end instrument. Through experience and knowing the sound one is after, be it snare, cymbal or drum, drummers can achieve that sound of distinction.
A good drummer can achieve the desired effect with low end equipment and I admire drummers that can do this. I respect Frankenstein drums and love to hear them.
High end drums and cymbals are often overrated, but they will sound good with some reliability.
Given the choice with limitless budget I would probably go for high end everything, but with my limited resources I can say that I am proud of the sound I am squeezing out of my inexpensive equipment and it gives me the opportunity to looking forward to upgrading and changing my sound as I develop my skill.
 
You know, if someone were to give me a set of high end DW's, I would be terrrified I'd screw them up, like drop and crack a shell, scratch the finish or wrap, knick the bearing edges, etc. etc. etc. Or they would get stolen. Same thing with a Mercedes Benz, Lexus, Audi, BMW.... Give me a slightly used Chevy Pickup truck that runs great and I'm happy. Same for my drums...a bit old, a bit scratched, kinda used, still sound great.

The first time I scratched the wrap or finish on a high end DW drum, I'd cry....

This is actually what I deal with. I have a mint condition DW kit I've been playing for the past 5 years. I mostly use it in the studio. I seldom play it out live, because I've seen too many careless soundguys and musicians that "accidentally" knock over a stand or a mic or whatever. The only reason I care about keeping it in mint condition is because I know that I'm going to sell it someday, probably in the next 10 years or so. It's a bummer for me to be SO careful with it, it's kind of a burden. But, when I get calls for studio gigs, the engineers want the sound of a DW kit with single-ply clear heads. I wouldn't mind getting a "nice-but-not-so-mint-condition" set of DWs, but the problem is that I have played a LOT of them, and my set are the only ones that have ever "spoken" to me. There's something magical about this particular set of tubs, but I'm on the lookout for another one, as white marine pearl isn't my favorite wrap.

I bought a great-sounding 1970 Ludwig Downbeat. It's my "Chevy pickup truck" that I don't mind if people bang up. Also, it sounds GREAT! I know that I don't *need* the sound of my DWs live, so why risk it?

Just about any kit you buy nowadays can sound good when close-miked and played live through a PA system. Heck, even those clangy B8/ZHT/ZBT/Pitch Blacks sound decent in a rock band. It's just not the sound for me. I'm picky about the sounds I'm creating, as the textures they make within the sonic spectrum is part of the art for me...
 
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