The concept of switching to Jazz-seasoned players please help me out here.

Spreggy

Silver Member
I have to make some decisions here about my future direction as a player. Current scene: I play in a weddings band that is a rock-n-roll no-brainer that requires no rehearsals anymore, and I play in a Big Band that gets maybe 6 gigs/year. A couple of years ago I was dead set on developing Jazz chops and focusing on getting some trio gigs. I took some lessons, learned some basic comping and such, but life got busy in another direction, and I'm still far from being a Jazz drummer that I would want to see. I can push a big band alright, but that is not the same thing at all.

So here's the thing. Having grown up on rock-n-roll, I'm like a lot of you guys who can pretty much hang on most rock tunes because we've heard them 8,000 times. But in Jazz, I don't know squat. I know there is a stigma about rock drummers gone Jazz, I think it makes most bass players roll their eyes like oh crap here comes the rock guy. I can appreciate the fact that Jazz isn't "my music" that I grew up on, or feel particularly connected to socially. I just plain like the music and musicality, and now that I'm in my mid-forties I can appreciate a more genteel vibe as well.

So with so much to learn in terms of repertoire, do you recommend chasing this idea? I would still need to make a lot of effort towards chops development, as I don't yet have what I would call a comprehensive language on the set for Jazz. I have some good books for this. But I also will need to learn a lot of songs before I will be able to show up at a jam session, yes?

Another direction I would dig is a Blues band, I've really enjoyed hearing bands typical of what you might hear at let's say Bourbon Street's in Nashville or the Dinosaur here in Roch. But I'm concerned about the viability of Blues bands due to local market size.

So the big Qs:
What songs? Is there a top 50 or 100?
How available are drum charts, and do they matter on gigs when everyone else is pulling from the Real Book? I do own a copy of Real book, Just Jazz version.
And the biggy: does this journey sound realistic?
 
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The idea is viable, but understand it will take some work.

The first step I'd take is buying "The Art of Bop Drumming" by John Riley, it's a perfect step into the world of jazz. I'd strongly consider getting a teacher to take you through the book, just to make sure it's flowing well and sounding good.

Work with the play-alongs, as much as possible. It's all about developing the ride cymbal and the coordination underneath and then learning to apply that into any jazz situation.

Check out some cds: Kind of Blue is a classic, but I'd also suggest some Art Blakey (Moanin' comes to mind), other guys will be in here to give some advice regarding music you should be listening to.

Start going to some gigs, not sure where you're located, but most cities will have a group of guys who are playing "traditional" or "bebop", and that's where the jazz chops are honed for me.

Drum charts aren't that important, I'd take the Real Book to rehearsals and gigs, but most often you just ask the band leader the form and style of the song (12 bar blues, latin feel. AABA form, medium swing) and you can pretty much write your own part as you go.


And yes, it's realistic.
 
Thanks for the great answer Oops. Any other kernels of wisdom from converts to jazz? Is there a lot of satisfaction along the way, or is it a journey with copious amounts of self-loathing? :p
 
I'd say go for it. You can't go wrong by expanding your area of interest and jazz will open up a lot of different material for you. I'd look into a lot of the standards and there are tons of them. Don't focus on just one style or drummer (Tony, Elvin, Max, etc.). In my opinion the most important part of trio or quartet gigs is to be able to swing. Start out by just playing ride and hats to some tunes. Don't even get involved with comping on snare or dropping bombs until you've got a feel of how to make the tune swing. As you get more familiar with tunes you'll start to anticipate kicks, fills, etc. One thing that helped me was to take a standard tune and then listen to as many different arrangements as I could find. Maybe something like "Green Dolphin Street". Don't worry about the stigma of being a "rock guy". If you're sincere about what you're doing and treat the music and your fellow players with respect you'll do fine.
 
Hey man, nice move.

Well, I'm going to tell you what I did, I played rock and only rock from when I started at age 7/8 up until the age of about 14/15 when I started getting serious about jazz.

At 15, my teacher told me to get Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer, by Jim Chapin. I went through the book with my teacher, really trying to nail each exercise before moving on, it took about two years. By the end, I found I was able to play anything that I heard in my head, any idea I wanted to express (within reason) seemed totally possible. I've matured as a player a lot since then, and can now conjure up more complicated ideas that are much harder to execute, but at the time, the ideas I had seemed to flow effortlessly from my mind to my hands and feet. With Art Of Bop Drumming, you can learn tasty chops for comping and soloing, but you'll only learn the things John Riley has written, because you won't have the co-ordination to expand on them. In my opinion you should get a good grip on independence with Chapin's book (you will have a good grip) and the tasteful music will flow much easier. You should still get Art Of Bop Drumming though because it is a wonderful text, with lots of great insight that I wish I knew sooner.

If all you did was listen to jazz between the time you start Advanced Techniques and the time you finish it, you will be a more than competent jazz drummer. As well as practicing co-ordination via the book, you'll be absorbing the music. You'll already be building up a library of vocabulary and taste. Try some of it out - depending on how far you are through the book, you may be able to actually execute some of the stuff you're hearing. Listening is the key. I learnt ALL my jazz chops from listening. I've learnt how to play nothing from books (I've got some good advice and valuable insight, but all of my comping and soloing and time playing comes 100% from other players). All I did was practice my co-ordination with Chapin's book, then just listened and played along all day. You'll pick stuff up by ear, and you will internalise it NATURALLY.

In my opinion, it is the same all the way through your education:
Stick Control for chops.
Advanced Techniques/Syncopation for co-ordination.
Transcribe for musicality (and the above, too)

You can't go wrong. With the right instruction and well directed practice, that's a foolproof plan right there ^. I hope I didn't come across as a bit ignorant or whatever, I really don't believe I am. I am an extremely serious student of music. I have a bloody library full of all sorts of books that are a "must have", but from experience the only 3 things you'll ever need are Stick Control, Syncopation and your ears.

The first two are dispensable.
 
I'd say go for it. You can't go wrong by expanding your area of interest and jazz will open up a lot of different material for you. I'd look into a lot of the standards and there are tons of them. Don't focus on just one style or drummer (Tony, Elvin, Max, etc.). In my opinion the most important part of trio or quartet gigs is to be able to swing. Start out by just playing ride and hats to some tunes. Don't even get involved with comping on snare or dropping bombs until you've got a feel of how to make the tune swing. As you get more familiar with tunes you'll start to anticipate kicks, fills, etc. One thing that helped me was to take a standard tune and then listen to as many different arrangements as I could find. Maybe something like "Green Dolphin Street". Don't worry about the stigma of being a "rock guy". If you're sincere about what you're doing and treat the music and your fellow players with respect you'll do fine.

Yeah this is good advice that I probably should have mentioned. I didn't take the time out to practice just swinging on the ride before I attacked independence - you could do, I didn't know any better. I know many people might argue that practicing Chapin's "confusing and complicated rhythms" won't help you to keep good time, but I disagree. If you can master the exercises in the book, you will have the ability to hear and feel so many subdivisions with various orchestrations under the ride cymbal swing, that your feel of space (really important), and the control you will develop from practicing those rhythms will instantly improve.

Remember that time and swing are different things. You're TIME can be improved by studying Advanced Techniques, but I doubt your SWING FEEL will. You get that by...you guessed it...LISTENING. In answer to your questions...

> Maybe consider avoiding a "top 50" sort of list, try to find your own path. I know people will say it's just to kick you off on the right foot sort of thing, but try to avoid it. Start with the music you know, Big Band, find a musician you like in that genre, find out who he worked with, then try to find one of HIS albums, you'll work your way into the small combo jazz eventually by using your own ears and not someone else's. You'll come across stuff you love and stuff you're not sure about, but that's even better. Develop your own roots.

> The Real Book IS your chart, if you need one. Try to learn repertoire by heart if you can. People like it when they can just shout out the name of a tune and you'll already know that it's an AABA form, or whatever.

> Yes it's realistic. Try to ENJOY the music you're listening too, as a whole, as well as listening to the drummer. Don't get too caught up in this whole life-long pursuit yet, just enjoy the ride.

One more thing...Time is REALLY important, more than soloing, more than comping...just keep great time and swing like a twat and you'll get plenty of gigs.
 
Pete and FJ, many thanks for your great answers.
 
Thanks for the great answer Oops. Any other kernels of wisdom from converts to jazz? Is there a lot of satisfaction along the way, or is it a journey with copious amounts of self-loathing? :p

If you like jazz, you'll have a lot of fun learning about it. If you don't like jazz, it will be a positive pain in the butt. as I'm sure you know, there's nothing more pull-your-hair-out frustrating that working hours on some technique/fill/tune that someone (teacher, bandmate, etc.) has told you to learn, but that you don't actually like. The important thing is to latch onto something that you like, and play it!

Like others have said, get The Art of Bop Drumming. It has a lot of comping, soloing, trading, and charts that make great exercises to get into a jazz mode of approaching percussion. I would also recommend buying some CDs. There is actually a GREAT discography in the back of Bop Drumming, but one of the things I think they don't have is Miles Davis. Get some earlier Miles records (with Tony Williams) and study his ride phrasing - later in his career he begins to get experimental, but earlier on, around when the quintet picked him up @ 18, he played rock-solid ride patterns that will NEVER let you down. Tony is the master.
 
he played rock-solid ride patterns that will NEVER let you down. Tony is the master.

Damn right. And when you've picked up some of those ride phrases, go through Advanced Techniques, Syncopation or Art Of Bop Drumming, and try playing those snare, bass and hi-hat comping figures with those new ride phrases.
 
Thanks for the great answer Oops. Any other kernels of wisdom from converts to jazz? Is there a lot of satisfaction along the way, or is it a journey with copious amounts of self-loathing? :p

Though I am much younger and have much less experience with music alone, I too have grown up around rock and roll and Nu metal and have played along to those since the beginning. Now as a Freshman, im just starting to come into the jazz scene, and its taking lots of time, and dedication, but if you want it, it will come, and im no where near the jazz drummer I would like to be, if you could even call me a jazz drummer, but I just want you to know that yes, this whole process comes with GREAT SATISFACTION!
 
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