SKF Blog: Freddie Gruber Has No Recordings; How Do We Know He Can Teach?

Scott K Fish

Silver Member
SKF Blog: Freddie Gruber Has No Recordings; How Do We Know He Can Teach?

SKF NOTE: If there are no band or performance recordings of drum teachers -- how do we know if what they're teaching is valid?

Rafik Mankarios (or someone able to post under Mr. Mankarios's "RM Drums" YouTube account) listened to this Freddie Gruber audio excerpt on my YouTube page, Freddie Gruber: Learning, Teaching Awareness of Rhythm, Melody, Harmony in Drumming, and posted this response:

Unbelievable how even the legends have fallen in the overblown, over exaggerated, overdramatized myth of Freddie Gruber...of whom you will not find a SINGLE DRUM TRACK, audio or video of his SUPPOSED playing! He's never gotten further in his ''lessons'' than how to hold sticks, and a philosophy on life!!! Sheeps following the piper...?

In the early 1980s, when preparing to interview Freddie for Modern Drummer, I faced the same lack of Freddie Gruber recorded material. Rather than dismiss Freddie's teaching, I took a different approach, speaking with respected drummers who saw and heard Freddie when he was an active drummer. Also, I read the famous 1947 Metronome The Shapes of Drums to Come column about Freddie by one the most respected jazz writers, Barry Ulanov.

An interview with Freddie was first suggested to me, I believe, by Jim Keltner. The interview took place in Buddy Rich's NYC apartment - one of Freddie's closest friends. Around the same time period I celebrated Mel Lewis's birthday in Mel's NYC apartment with Freddie and Adam Nussbaum.

When I spoke with Jim Chapin, author of the famous Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer book, he had high praise for Freddie Gruber. Mr. Chapin, during our phone conversation, actually mouthed an example of how Freddie Gruber's drum solos sounded, because that was easier than trying to put that sound into words.

Neil Peart met and studied with Freddie and, after Freddie's death, Neil provided the biographical tribute on The Official Site of Freddie Guber.

And, during my interview of Freddie Gruber, he helped me solve a nagging physical question of mine which I wrote about here.

I've learned my whole life from drummers, from non-drummer musicians, without knowing or caring if they had ever cut a record. And I've heard stories praising local drummers -- like Gaetan Caviola -- who I did hear on two albums. But based strictly on those two albums, I would not have put Mr. Caviola in the same class as Louis Bellson, as did musicians I met in Iowa and Illinois who knew Caviola personally.

Fair enough if one drum teacher's methods don't hit home with us. But as far as dismissing Freddie Gruber as a teacher I close with my favorite Sherlock Holmes admonition: "How dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data."

Scott K Fish Blog: Life Beyond the Cymbals
 
Yet another gem Scott. I'm also thinking of Bruce Becker (who, among other things, has a DVD, book and Drumeo video out) who spent a lot of time with Freddie and passes on Freddie's ideas and practices in his own teaching.
 


In the early 1980s, when preparing to interview Freddie for Modern Drummer, I faced the same lack of Freddie Gruber recorded material. Rather than dismiss Freddie's teaching, I took a different approach, speaking with respected drummers who saw and heard Freddie when he was an active drummer. Also, I read the famous 1947 Metronome The Shapes of Drums to Come column about Freddie by one the most respected jazz writers, Barry Ulanov.

An interview with Freddie was first suggested to me, I believe, by Jim Keltner. The interview took place in Buddy Rich's NYC apartment - one of Freddie's closest friends. Around the same time period I celebrated Mel Lewis's birthday in Mel's NYC apartment with Freddie and Adam Nussbaum.

When I spoke with Jim Chapin, author of the famous Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer book, he had high praise for Freddie Gruber. Mr. Chapin, during our phone conversation, actually mouthed an example of how Freddie Gruber's drum solos sounded, because that was easier than trying to put that sound into words.

Neil Peart met and studied with Freddie and, after Freddie's death, Neil provided the biographical tribute on The Official Site of Freddie Guber.

And, during my interview of Freddie Gruber, he helped me solve a nagging physical question of mine which I wrote about here.

I've learned my whole life from drummers, from non-drummer musicians, without knowing or caring if they had ever cut a record. And I've heard stories praising local drummers -- like Gaetan Caviola -- who I did hear on two albums. But based strictly on those two albums, I would not have put Mr. Caviola in the same class as Louis Bellson, as did musicians I met in Iowa and Illinois who knew Caviola personally.

Fair enough if one drum teacher's methods don't hit home with us. But as far as dismissing Freddie Gruber as a teacher I close with my favorite Sherlock Holmes admonition: "How dangerous it always is to reason from insufficient data."

Scott K Fish Blog: Life Beyond the Cymbals



The accomplishment was (Gruber) gaining peoples respect, some big names are dropped here... although Neil Peart has only recorded RUSH albums and there's a lot of 'famous' drummers who're essentially one trick ponies, not like in the days of Gruber when a drummer had to know many styles well to find work.


So, its a feat too, never recorded, but regarded as a great teacher. Could you imagine taking lessons from Buddy Rich? That'd a been a drama fest Im sure, he might've been breaking sticks over your head, or maybe you'd a been going home and breaking sticks over your head after lessons with him.
 
Dropping knowledge, dropping names. Really good stuff.

Teaching is definitely different from drumming. In sports, there are endless examples of superstar players who just weren't good at coaching (or managing). Michael Jordan can't teach a lesser player to do what he did... just take off from the top of the key, hang in the air for an impossibly long time and jam it in the basket.

With that said, I've been impressed at the couple of drum clinics I've been to that the superstar drummers behind the kit were almost as good at sharing information as they are at playing.

It's rare to have both. I think the idea of life-long learning is also important. As great as Buddy Rich was (at drumming), I think he could have learned a lot from Clyde Stubblefield or Bernard Purdie--and vice versa.
 
Teaching is a specialized skill. I wouldn't judge a teacher by his/her recordings.

The people who studied with Freddie can't say enough about him. It's hard for me to question any of that. I also get the sense that part of what he helped people with was finding better ways to move. And I'm assuming some of that was to avoid injury.

Here's the one thing I will say, though, at the risk of being accused of sacrilege: I preferred the playing of many of his famous students before they studied with him. Not sure what that means, if anything. I'm just saying.
 
No offense to Freddie, or anyone who studied under him or knew him (sure seems like a nice enough guy...), but I just can't sit still long enough to see if he ever finishes a thought or an idea. Just seems to meander along the path a bit. I am sure he is going somewhere but I'd just as soon wait in the car lol.
 
I liked the follow-up:

I'm not at all discrediting a fellow drummer because he has NO recording...

I actually sent my very serious question through Facebook directly to 3 renowned world-class drummers that have apparently taken a lesson with Gruber, not expecting any of them to reply to an ''unknown'' drummer like me. I essentially asked them if Freddie Gruber was a farce since NOWHERE is there trace of any recording whatsoever, and that all he ever says has to do with holding and bouncing a stick!

Well...ONE of them replied to me! I won't name him because he has not given me permission to quote him. But essentially he said, that Freddie Gruber was an ''old school drummer''. The drummer in question said he heard Freddie play a few short minutes, and thought it was ''an old master bringing the sound out of an instrument''. Basically, interpret as you wish!!

In essence, he was absolutely nothing spectacular, but had a certain graceful movement about hitting the drum. So all this nonsense about him ''re-inventing'' Neil Peart, or any other super-drummer, is just an old myth that's been accepted in the drumming community for the longest time. Professional drummers are usually very polite and graceful about other and older drum brothers. What freaks me out is the people who have NEVER heard Freddie Gruber play, say he's a genius just because Weckl or Peart took a lesson from him to improve their posture. I'm the first person to respect other drummers, but I also cannot stand mass hysteria based of fiction!! Voilà!

Well done addressing that seriously, and not just lighting up that weirdo Buddy Rich wannabe... my preferred avenue...

It's legit for people to ask questions about things they don't understand, but to come at it like "THAT GUY is a total fraud and I can't believe people are stupid enough to believe his garbage, WTF??? Thank you for answering this very serious question." No.

I think teachers see a fair amount of people questioning fundamental things in this childish kind of way. Most of us don't have the complete theoretical background on why things in drumming are the way they are, to be able to give great answers all the time. I put it back on the questioner's attitude. When you question something good drummers know, and then consider it debunked when you don't get an answer you like (or when the person you ask considers you hopeless and not worth responding to) all you've really accomplished is that you cut yourself off from information. In music, people who do that are losers.
 
Well there (at about 1:00) is a recording of a young FG by Jim Chapin! Sounds really good to me, exactly the kind of soloing I like to hear.

A glimpse into the past. Many thanks for providing this recording!
 
Scott,

Was great to hear Jim talk about FG.

My question to you is: Are you really certain FG never recorded? (I don´t know this, just asking...).



Take care!
 
I find it surprising Freddie never recorded. Maybe many of his recordings (if he did do any) were not on mainstream record labels back in the day and never made it to CD. Just a guess...Freddie was up there in age.

Then again, maybe not that abnormal to just play gigs back in the day.

I'm sure Freddy was an excellent drummer if many big names (Peart, keltner, etc) were taught by him.
 
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I find it surprising Freddie never recorded. Maybe many of his recordings (if he did do any) were not on mainstream record labels back in the day and never made it to CD. Just a guess...Freddie was up their in age.

Then again, maybe not that abnormal to just play gigs back in the day.

I'm sure Freddy was an excellent drummer if many big names (Peart, keltner, etc) were taught by him.

I dunno, all I do these days is play gigs. I'm sure no one is interested in hearing me recorded.
 
I dunno, all I do these days is play gigs. I'm sure no one is interested in hearing me recorded.

I would say back in the day there were probably many music teachers by day and play the clubs at night. I do know Freddie played with Charlie Parker for a stint. I'm not certain how long he stayed in NY. Reading Peart's books, Freddy was living on the west coast at least since the 80's (maybe earlier).
 
At first, I was really skeptical about Gruber after reading/seeing clips here and there.

I got three words for ya: Dave f#%king Weckl!

After seeing the evolution vids from Weckl, I totally understood it and I really think his playing improved as result of Freddie's teaching.
 
I've spent my entire life becoming the best teacher I can be.

Only recording though is a cassette tape from around '93. Guess I can't teach because of that. lol


As a side there would be both records and books out had it not been for the unfortunate job situation I've share here and there. Having skills and experience relates to teaching, but it's not the same and I've got plenty of experience both gigging, conducting. When it comes to being that plumber you pay because he knows where to bang it's on a pretty high intuitive level at this point and that came from studying a lot of other things as well. The metaphysical stuff is a significant part of of developng those senses, too. Still being an avid student in any related area is a big part as well. Not being stuck and be in realtime with where you are and constant changes.
 
I've often wondered about this guy, too. He seems like such a crazy cosmic weirdo, and I just can't imagine anyone getting anything out of spending time with him.

The Weckl thing. Eh...

I mean, Weckl was ripe for a technique overhaul anyway at that point, and I feel like Freddie just came into his life at the right time. Had he studied with Morello--a proven teacher and the dude who REALLY pioneered all these principles of rebound and natural body motion--he likely would have gotten where he was going much quicker.

That said, you got Weckl, Steve Smith, and Adam Nussbaum all singing his praises, so there must be something there.

I'd imagine it boils down to charisma. The guy has so many stories that it'd probably be fun to just sit there listening to him talk about doing heroin in LA during the 60s and 70s.
 
..I've spent my entire life becoming the best teacher I can be..


If i may ask, how many students are you having on a regular basis..?

Because the area where the location says that you live is not having having a huge amount of people i think, with even less people that want to learn an instrument, with even less people that want to learn drums, etc..

I ask this because i am planning to start my own little drumschool this year and i am just wondering how many students on a regular basis most teachers have..
 
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