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  #1  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:13 PM
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Default A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

So I was practicing to the met. Mine bottoms out at 40 BPM. Wondering why they don't go down to 2 BPM, I decided to mathematically deduce what a corresponding higher tempo would be. One that I could set the met to. I started with 2 BPM because 1 x 1 = 1, dead end. You'll are with me right? My reasoning is that if I can't set the met to 2 BPM, then 64 BPM, the lowest factor of 2 that I could set my met to, would make the same feel, albeit at a faster tempo. I could play 2 BPM to 64 BPM. Just hit every 32 clicks. I believe this to be mathematically sound. Yea that's really slow to play, but just go with it. That's not the main point. I guess I should qualify this by saying that in my mind, each tempo has a corresponding feel to it. Fast or slow, there is a unique feel, particular to that tempo, and factors (not multiples) of that tempo.

Taking this one step further, I decided to calculate every BPM from 2 to 39, even the odd numbers, just to see what it would reveal. I took every single number from 2 to 39 and factored it until it registered over 40. Cutting to the chase, what I came up with is.......TADA! 19 basic tempos. There are only 19 tempos. Every other tempo is just a multiple of the 19. Almost. Close enough for all intents and purposes. When you get to 81 and 82 BPM, they don't halve perfectly with corresponding tempos, but in my mind it's splitting hairs. 81, or 82... feels close enough to 40, 83 feels close enough to 42, and so on.

Pretty cool yes? No?

What do you think? 19 basic tempos? Am I mental?
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

I am a little confused...nothing new but I found this under a search for Tempo;


This set of tempo cards is used throughout Music Mind Games in beginning through advanced games to teach students (ages 6 - adult) about the various tempos used in musical compositions. There is a card for each of the eleven basic tempos: Largo, Lento, Adagio, Andante, Andantino, Moderato, Allegretto, Allegro, Vivace, Presto and Prestissimo. A guide card, which shows the order of tempos, a card on teaching tempos symmetrically and five games makes this a very complete set for learning tempos. Each set of tempo cards has two cards for each of the eleven tempos since many games use two sets of cards.

These are only names and not metro variables so I guess you are correct in your research.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

you are absolutely mental Larry....no doubt about it

but I dig it
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

You said you could at 64 but it bottoms out at 40. So would the 40 which is divisible by 2 change this.??? Set it at 40 and hit every 20 ticks, Yes???
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Umm I didn't think of that John..... I said validate lol...That still has no bearing on the 19 unique feels. That's the gist.

The Italians I suppose consolidated it further and grouped a certain range of BPM's as one. Their way is easier I guess. Nevermind. Carry on. Sorry.
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Well Larry, basically all you've done is re-discovered Prime numbers, and applied it to tempo, but instead of dividing, you're multiplying and averaging out some of the higher numbers.

And while there are (in theory) an infinite number of prime numbers, the ones that would be useful to us would be these

2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, 101, 103, 107, 109, 113, 127, 131, 137, 139, 149, 151.

Then then with modern computers, you can sub-divide each tempo in fractions.

Once a guy sent me track, and I could not sync it up. So I finally asked what tempo it was at, and the answer was something like 120.75 or something crazy like that. Why? I don't know.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Pretty cool yes? No?

What do you think? Am I mental?
ptheeoww.... *drool* (brain malfunction, total overload, need total reboot)


Yes Larry, you're totally mental :)
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Once a guy sent me track, and I could not sync it up. So I finally asked what tempo it was at, and the answer was something like 120.75 or something crazy like that. Why? I don't know.
Can you actually feel a difference of 0.25 bpm in a tempo as opposed to play it at 121 bpm?

I know it would take about 4 quarter notes to be a full bpm behind the nearest full value tempo, but in terms of feel for a song? Can it makes that much difference?
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  #9  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

It's a curious feeling to think you're a Newton one minute and Neumann the next minute. That's OK. Embarrassing myself in public is what I do. Ian, Good stuff. The prime numbers thing makes perfect sense.
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Can you actually feel a difference of 0.25 bpm in a tempo as opposed to play it at 121 bpm?

I know it would take about 4 quarter notes to be a full bpm behind the nearest full value tempo, but in terms of feel for a song? Can it makes that much difference?
I got an app for that!
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  #11  
Old 06-30-2012, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Could you explain that again, please?
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  #12  
Old 06-30-2012, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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What do you think?

Do you have a medical marijuana card?


I lost you at 2 BPM.

Hit a stroke, step into the kitchen and pour a cocktail, take a sip and be back in plenty of time for the next one? :)
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

If you're playing at 121 and lost a beat off the last bar each round you'd sure notice it... it's like trying to play 5:4 or something.

And as for the basic tempos this is awesome.

I got my head around it. Of course you could play 2BPM and match it straight down to 30.

The thing is it's Beats Per Minute. Not per minute and 4 seconds. So work on 60 and divide it down.

2 and 30
3 and 20
4 and 15 (one beat every 15 seconds)
5 and 12
6 and 10
8 and 7.5 (now this is where it would get tricky).

When you start getting down to the half seconds we could cut the last bar in half or play two minute groups.

Or go back to your 40BPM base and have

2 and 20
4 and 10
8 and 5

Ah maths. How we love thee.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Do you have a medical marijuana card?
Medical bath salt card.

Quote:
Hit a stroke, step into the kitchen and pour a cocktail, take a sip and be back in plenty of time for the next one? :)
I'd be really impressed if you could do this accurately. The difficulty with slower tempo clicks is that you really have to keep accurate time by yourself.

Frankly, I think 1 BPM needs a little recognition, here.
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  #15  
Old 07-01-2012, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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What do you think? 19 basic tempos? Am I mental?
Yes, you are SO mental you don't even know, PhilAce...
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Larry ...I love ya,but I gotta ask...have you been indulging in the main subject matter of the first Cheech and Chong album?Peace my brother from another mother.:)

Steve B
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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If you're playing at 121 and lost a beat off the last bar each round you'd sure notice it... it's like trying to play 5:4 or something.

And as for the basic tempos this is awesome.

I got my head around it. Of course you could play 2BPM and match it straight down to 30.

The thing is it's Beats Per Minute. Not per minute and 4 seconds. So work on 60 and divide it down.

2 and 30
3 and 20
4 and 15 (one beat every 15 seconds)
5 and 12
6 and 10
8 and 7.5 (now this is where it would get tricky).

When you start getting down to the half seconds we could cut the last bar in half or play two minute groups.

Or go back to your 40BPM base and have

2 and 20
4 and 10
8 and 5

Ah maths. How we love thee.
If you are playing this slow you don't need a metronome but a watch.
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  #18  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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If you're playing at 121 and lost a beat off the last bar each round you'd sure notice it... it's like trying to play 5:4 or something.
Well that's the theory, my take is that a drummer playing along to click can have fluctuation within the tempo, in other threads, it has been said using the "In Search of the Click Track" web site that a drummer can vary the tempo up to 10 bpm in some cases, and at best achieve a 97% plot, so to be 0.25 bpm out and giving a + - 1 bpm throughout a song, it will probably go totally unoticed.

Here's an exemple, the mighty Billy Cobham playing Mirage, with a 97% accuracy, when you listen to the song, you don't notice the variations, but there's drop in tempo up to - 2 bpm.

The song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An6ae_3-DCs

The Plot: http://labs.echonest.com/click/?song...m&title=Mirage
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Larry, funny thing, before clicking I figured the subject matter would be too advanced for me ... your playing has leapt ahead in leaps and bounds since I've been here.

However, it appears that you have leapt so far that you're now off the precipice. Enjoy the trip down - be sure not to bump into too many believers in supernatural agents, crystals, touters of homoeopathic remedies and economic rationalists ...

To clarify: are you saying that if you have 19 tempos then those 19 will have at least one equivalent tempo (eg. via subdivision) of every tempo possible? It sounds like a mathematical exercise and I can't see a practical application ... ?

Playing one note every 30 seconds would be a head trip - trying to maintain timing with no stimulus at all. If you have the discipline to do it (I don't), I expect you'll improve your time and get a nice little meditation session in there as well.

Yes, each tempo has its own personality, as does each beat - although I think each beat has a certain tempo range where it's optimal. Theoretically you should be able to adjust the feel and tones of just about beat at any tempo and get it sounding good but for practical application most tempos are between adagio and allegro (approx 60 to 160).

Dr Anon prescribes 3 days off the choof and then to do a MENSA test cos they may be the only ones likely to understanding the deeper recesses of your mind ;-)
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Hahaha. This is exactly the kind of thing I always wind up doing. I overthink everything.

Larry, I love it. I thought about how this is basically about prime numbers, too, but I see someone beat me to the punch. Totally my kind of thing.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:53 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

OK settle down....I'm not nuts. First off, every word I have ever written here....was under some kind of outside influence lol. You can count on future words being similar lol. Second, the whole reason for this is such. In my mind, I should only have to practice stuff at 19 different tempos (feels) which are 40 BPM to 80 BPM, by 2's. I should have all the feels covered in that range. See this makes sense in my head, it doesn't necessarily have to make sense in yours lol.

I actually think that 15 to 20 BPM is a valid speed for a song. A beat every 3 or 4 seconds. Below that is way slow, I just went lower as a math experiment. I wish my met went down to 10 BPM, so I could practice super slow. That was the thing that spurred this on.

Grea, re: to clarify....Yes. Practical application: If you practice something at 60 BPM, it would be related to 30 BPM and 120 BPM and 240 BPM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:19 AM
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First off, every word I have ever written here....was under some kind of outside influence lol...
You sure were under some influences :)

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Old 07-01-2012, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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I wish my met went down to 10 BPM, so I could practice super slow. That was the thing that spurred this on.
Mobile Metronome is a nice little app that will go to 10 BPM.

BTW, I dig your style brother and I LOVE the idea of only having to master 19 tempos in order to have this whole groove thing sewn up. I will gladly jump on that magic bandwagon with you and ride off into the sunset. ;-)
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2012, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Henri, if you and Grea didn't capture EXACTLY how I felt for about 15 minutes.....Geez man, that was brilliant! Pun intended! Hey it may already be known to everyone else, but it's new to me! Grea thanks for that, you are just a fountain of talent.

Spleen! I figured there was something already out there. I knew someone would hip me to it. That was you, thanks. In the meantime, I actually enjoy making a complete idiot of myself, as long as it's in the pursuit of understanding this whole rhythm/tempo conundrum. Yuk yuk. ConunDRUM! [rimshot]

I'll be here all week folks!
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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OK settle down....I'm not nuts.
Of course you aren't, Larry *pat pat*


Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Practical application: If you practice something at 60 BPM, it would be related to 30 BPM and 120 BPM and 240 BPM.
I see it as the same phemon you see in any practice - if you improve the way you play one rhythm then there's all sorts of flow on effects to related tempo divisions and surrounding tempos, along with similar rhythms, and even fills, grip and stroke.

Henri's having fun with my toons again - this is the original but the BPM dialogue definitely fits: http://www.sangrea.net/free-cartoons...-computing.jpg

Edit: Larry I'm a fountain of useless talent - if there's something that no one is prepared to pay for, then I've probably got it down :)
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:47 AM
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OK settle down....I'm not nuts.
Of course not!! You're "special".....there's a big difference.

But on that note, I'm outta here. If anyone wants me, I shall be at the bar. Driven to it too I might add. But nonetheless, there's an old barfly down there who hasn't been home in three days now......yet strangely enough, he's making way more sense.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Of course you aren't, Larry *pat pat*




I see it as the same phemon you see in any practice - if you improve the way you play one rhythm then there's all sorts of flow on effects to related tempo divisions and surrounding tempos, along with similar rhythms, and even fills, grip and stroke.

Henri's having fun with my toons again - this is the original but the BPM dialogue definitely fits: http://www.sangrea.net/free-cartoons...-computing.jpg

Edit: Larry I'm a fountain of useless talent - if there's something that no one is prepared to pay for, then I've probably got it down :)
Love your pats. Lower please! You know just how to make a man feel good and you do it sooo well! Lower please!

See you get the relationship. You just described it above. I'm just trying to simply things for myself. Instead of practicing at 240 different tempos, (40 to 280 BPM) I only need 19. I gotta break it down to something I can understand, as I'm rather dull. I thought you and Henri just cooked this up. More proof of my dullness. That cartoon is universal, a true classic. Just insert applicable text. Bravo Henri!
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:58 AM
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But on that note, I'm outta here. If anyone wants me, I shall be at the bar. Driven to it too I might add. But nonetheless, there's an old barfly down there who hasn't been home in three days now......yet strangely enough, he's making way more sense.
May I join you Jules :)

...Hey, barman... can we have 2 "specials" please...

Cheers!!!
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:15 AM
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I'm outta here. If anyone wants me, I shall be at the bar. Driven to it too I might add..
Jules...dude, you are very wanted....not by me, just sayin :) You go drown them sorrows dude!
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Am I mental?
Yes, Larry, you are quite mad.

And I LIKE IT-- I've been kicking something like this around for awhile, but haven't been able to get my head around how to realize it. I was thinking along the lines of starting from the familiar moderate tempos, and then doubling or halving them, adding something in there to do with dotted values, then ???? and a whole lot of ????, ending up with a handful of tempo matrices which will be usable in some yet-unknown way. Or not.
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:48 AM
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Love your pats. Lower please! You know just how to make a man feel good and you do it sooo well! Lower please!
May I email this to your wife? haha


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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
See you get the relationship. You just described it above. I'm just trying to simply things for myself. Instead of practicing at 240 different tempos, (40 to 280 BPM) I only need 19. I gotta break it down to something I can understand
NOW I get it ... what are the 19 fundamental tempos?

You're far from "rather dull" - more the mad professor type. We can be grateful that you choose to use your powers for drumming rather than, say, Frankenstein monsters ...
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

40 to 80 BPM by 2's Actually that makes 20 fundamental tempos. I don't know how I came up with 19. Please update your files. Hmm 20 fundamental tempos. We have 20 fingers and toes. Hmmm...There's gotta be some sort of connection...... Ommmmmmm
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:02 AM
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40 to 80 BPM by 2's Actually that makes 20 fundamental tempos. I don't know how I came up with 19. Please update your files. Hmm 20 fundamental tempos. We have 20 fingers and toes. Hmmm...There's gotta be some sort of connection...... Ommmmmmm
Ommmmmmm ...
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

I don't know what the heck you're talking about.

At some point wouldn't a person start counting the space between the beats anyway? Where is the point that a person stops counting the individual beats and counts the space between the beats to stay in time?
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuka View Post
If you're playing at 121 and lost a beat off the last bar each round you'd sure notice it... it's like trying to play 5:4 or something.

And as for the basic tempos this is awesome.

I got my head around it. Of course you could play 2BPM and match it straight down to 30.

The thing is it's Beats Per Minute. Not per minute and 4 seconds. So work on 60 and divide it down.

2 and 30
3 and 20
4 and 15 (one beat every 15 seconds)
5 and 12
6 and 10
8 and 7.5 (now this is where it would get tricky).

When you start getting down to the half seconds we could cut the last bar in half or play two minute groups.

Or go back to your 40BPM base and have

2 and 20
4 and 10
8 and 5

Ah maths. How we love thee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
I don't know what the heck you're talking about.

At some point wouldn't a person start counting the space between the beats anyway? Where is the point that a person stops counting the individual beats and counts the space between the beats to stay in time?
Forgive me but I don't know what the heck both these posts are talking about so that makes us even lol.
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Old 07-01-2012, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
40 to 80 BPM by 2's Actually that makes 20 fundamental tempos. I don't know how I came up with 19. Please update your files. Hmm 20 fundamental tempos. We have 20 fingers and toes. Hmmm...There's gotta be some sort of connection...... Ommmmmmm
40 to 80 inclusive is 21 steps, Prof Larry.

40 42 44 46 48 50 52 54 56 58 60 62 64 66 68 70 72 74 76 78 80

The tempo table is attached to test your theory (if I got it right)

When you put it together the list of tempos (only using multiples of 2) you get 95 tempos, but as you say the in between tempos are probably covered by these, although the 8bpm gaps from 160 upwards might be an issue for some:

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
42
44
46
48
50
52
54
56
58
60
62
64
66
68
70
72
74
76
78
80
84
88
92
96
100
104
108
112
116
120
124
128
132
136
140
144
148
152
156
160
168
176
184
192
200
208
216
224
232
240
248
256
264
272
280
288
296
304
312
320

Enjoy :)
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Old 07-01-2012, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Forgive me but I don't know what the heck both these posts are talking about so that makes us even lol.
Sorry, this thread flew right over my head. I have no idea...now I will slowly back away and slip into the background again.

I'm just the peanut gallery...
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Wow Pol. But it is 20. 40 and 80 are equal in this application, so by including 40 and 80, you begin to repeat. I don't understand your 95 tempos. I took 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 to get 64, which was the first number over 40. Then I took 3BPM x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, which equals 48 BPM, 4 BPM ends up at 64, 5 BPM ends up at 40, 6 BPM is 48, and so on up to 39 BPM which ends up at 78. Then I counted each different tempo only one time, and it added up to 20. After 80 BPM everything lines up (almost) with the original 20 feels. You can see that 48 lines up with 6 BPM and 3 BPM, as well as 12 BPM, 24 BPM...so certain tempos repeat. After 80 BPM is where the perfection stops and then it's splitting hairs. Fascinating.

Last edited by larryace; 07-01-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:05 AM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Yep 20. You're right, Larry. I got lost after that.

I only worked out the possibilities in twos. I've quit cigs but smoking more of other to compensate so I'm not up to doing the calcs with 3s to generate another list :)

I'm being theoretical, of course. In practice I'm flat out holding it down nice at 60.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: A discovery of sorts? (for me at least) Validate please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
At some point wouldn't a person start counting the space between the beats anyway? Where is the point that a person stops counting the individual beats and counts the space between the beats to stay in time?
Aaahh, yes, but that's not what Larry's theory is about, Mr Ace want to develop a system were by using the 20 fundamental tempos, you actually cover all possible bpm's speed rating, a nice concept in theory, similar to Benny Greb's alphabet of binary and ternary notes.

But Larry's concept has some bugs, if I want to practice at 67 bpm for exemple, according to Grea's list, this tempo is not featured, you'll have to use a "conventional" approach with the metronome set at 67 bpm, unless I'm mistaken, no doubt Mr Ace will clarify this one for me :)

The concept itself is cool, and if applied, can simplify the number of tempos to a mere 20 possibilities, which is more easy to memorise than 280 possibilites.

This is were the similarities with BG's concept is striking, there's only 24 possibilities to play notes, 16 for binary notes and 8 for ternary notes.

You can play all 24 possibilities individually with each limb against a quarter note pulse set at a given bpm speed, and by using the subdivisions, playing through quarters, 8th notes, 16th notes, 32rd notes, 64th notes and so on, you actually cover the whole possibilities, you can also play a simple beat with three limbs and the fourth limb goes through the alphabet (posibilities), the concept is endless.

Here's a chart of BG's 24 possibilities, ie: the alphabet.

O = played - = rest (not played)
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