Swinging Jazz in Shifting Meters

con struct

Platinum Member
I've been working on the drum parts to some of my tunes, getting ready for a show in New York. One of those tunes is quite difficult for me to get under my hands.

Tempo is quarter note=200, swinging all the way. What makes it difficult are the meters; trying to keep a consistent swinging bed for the melody and chords to sit on is maddening. I really had a problem with the hats, playing them on one and throwing the whole thing off kilter.

Here's the A section, one chord per meter: 4/4 6/4 3/4 4/4 3/4 3/4 3/4 5/4

That repeats, then on to the B section: 4/4 7/4 5/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4

Then once more with A. Try to play the jazz ride cymbal pattern over all that while keeping it steady and cool, it's not a loud tune.

For me it's the drumming equivalent of a tongue twister. I'm curious to see what some of our resident jazz guys make of it. I've come up with my own solution (that I'm still working on), but I'm certain there are other ways of approaching this.
 
Hate to break it to you, but odd-meters do not swing, especially when the phrasing is so off-kilter to require a different meter every bar ;)

I think unless it's some repeating meter pattern, then you can make it swing (like Vinne does with Sting's Seven Days or Brubeck's Take Five. But if you do that, you run the risk of screwing everybody else up who won't know where 1 is too.

You have a conundrum. I think it can be done, you're creative. But everytime somebody tells me to swing in just one odd-time meter, I keep thinking, "you've been in college too long" ;)
 
Hate to break it to you, but odd-meters do not swing, especially when the phrasing is so off-kilter to require a different meter every bar ;)

Ah, but there is swing and then there is swing. The solution is fairly easy, considering that the melody is not syncopated to the meters.

One of the central concepts to my writing is making shifting meters swing. It takes backing up and viewing the music from a distance, so to speak.
 
Ah, but there is swing and then there is swing. The solution is fairly easy, considering that the melody is not syncopated to the meters.

One of the central concepts to my writing is making shifting meters swing. It takes backing up and viewing the music from a distance, so to speak.

I'd be interested in hearing this piece. Any recording made of it we could hear?
 
i don't agree that odd meters can't swing. swing is just a matter of subdividing in 3.

you can make it swing man. my jazz group play a few songs in 5 and 3. i like to just emphasize the quarter note pulse and comp over the bar line. think in phrases rather than meters. play in 1/4 rather than a particular meter and then just sing phrases in your head.
 
So, Take 5, Rhondo Ala Turk, and Afro Blue are not swing pieces Bo?


For your hi hat, maybe use it sparingly for a little extra spice. I am also a fan of totally ad libing the ride patterns off the quarter note.
 
So, Take 5, Rhondo Ala Turk, and Afro Blue are not swing pieces Bo?


For your hi hat, maybe use it sparingly for a little extra spice. I am also a fan of totally ad libing the ride patterns off the quarter note.

Would I be ruffling some feathers if I said 'no'? I think so. But in the strictest sense, I don't think those are true swing pieces. Blue Rondo a la Turk has a swing section in four - they're not swinging the sections in 9. I base my sense of swing on whether or not people can easily dance to it. Lets face it, nobody's dancing in 5, or 7....you hardly see people dancing waltzes these days (in America anyway). Just because they've become standard jazz literature pieces worthy of academic study doesn't mean you'll hear them in any dance halls, which is where the real swing lives ;)
 
Would I be ruffling some feathers if I said 'no'? I think so. But in the strictest sense, I don't think those are true swing pieces. Blue Rondo a la Turk has a swing section in four - they're not swinging the sections in 9. I base my sense of swing on whether or not people can easily dance to it. Lets face it, nobody's dancing in 5, or 7....you hardly see people dancing waltzes these days (in America anyway). Just because they've become standard jazz literature pieces worthy of academic study doesn't mean you'll hear them in any dance halls, which is where the real swing lives ;)

Okay, now you are just silly. lol

People can listen to jazz in our time and not have to be able to dance to it.
 
Okay, now you are just silly. lol

People can listen to jazz in our time and not have to be able to dance to it.

Silly, yes. I suppose historically, jazz became a listener's music when there was a dance tax imposed during the war, and that really led to alot of experimentation with the music, and thats cool. But I've spent my time in college playing weird jazz, which didn't really help my career much in the end, but if you like it, I'm cool. It's so much work for me to just swing the band in 4 most of the time that that's where all my energy goes these days ;)
 
Would I be ruffling some feathers if I said 'no'? I think so. But in the strictest sense, I don't think those are true swing pieces. Blue Rondo a la Turk has a swing section in four - they're not swinging the sections in 9. I base my sense of swing on whether or not people can easily dance to it. Lets face it, nobody's dancing in 5, or 7....you hardly see people dancing waltzes these days (in America anyway). Just because they've become standard jazz literature pieces worthy of academic study doesn't mean you'll hear them in any dance halls, which is where the real swing lives ;)

i believe that swing comes from the subdivision, not the meter. its how you play between the pulse that defines the "swing".
 
i believe that swing comes from the subdivision, not the meter.

Could you explain what you mean by that, swing coming from the subdivision? It's the first time I've ever heard that; do you mean as applied to odd meters?
 
Would I be ruffling some feathers if I said 'no'? I think so. But in the strictest sense, I don't think those are true swing pieces. Blue Rondo a la Turk has a swing section in four - they're not swinging the sections in 9. I base my sense of swing on whether or not people can easily dance to it. Lets face it, nobody's dancing in 5, or 7....you hardly see people dancing waltzes these days (in America anyway). Just because they've become standard jazz literature pieces worthy of academic study doesn't mean you'll hear them in any dance halls, which is where the real swing lives ;)
So you're saying it's swing ONLY if people dance to it? That doesn't make any sense. Have you heard of the term superimposing? Maybe you should look it up. It makes odd times feel good and groovy(and swingy). Take 5 does swing!
 
Lets face it, nobody's dancing in 5, or 7....you hardly see people dancing waltzes these days (in America anyway). Just because they've become standard jazz literature pieces worthy of academic study doesn't mean you'll hear them in any dance halls, which is where the real swing lives ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5A5w6GkiqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3gWrWGAcU (from 2:09)

Seems that in the west we're gradually eliminating 3s ... 12/8 blues or ballads, 3/4s, and music with a swing or bounce have increasingly fallen out of fashion for decades.

J, CP's just talking about dividing by 3 ... 1-e-a 2-e-a 3-e-a 4-e-a 5-e-a
 
For me Take FIve does not swing, for the simple reason that it's locked into the meter so strongly that it's clunky and monotonous. It's a measure-by-measure thing, too syncopated and predictable. The pattern repeats over and over, making it, in my opinion, too mechanical to be considered as swinging. It's all inside the bar line, you see, very anal and obvious. Subtle it isn't.

But then I've never been a Brubeck fan.
 
Did I not say I knew I would be ruffling some serious feathers? OK. Have it your way. This is me with my hands up, backing away. Whatever you guys say is swing, must be swing. It's all music to me, and I play what I play. Lets not turn this into an argument.

I'll go with Duke Ellington's definition: "There should only be two bins at the record store for music, "good" and "bad"." How's that?

Smiles everyone ;)

Pretty soon a good drummer will be defined by how many notes he can squeeze into a bar....
 
I'll go with Duke Ellington's definition: "There should only be two bins at the record store for music, "good" and "bad"." How's that?
"My music rules, your sucks because I don't understand/like it"
Limiting yourself to listening to "safe" music, is not very wise if you want to evolve as a musician.
 
Enjoying the "what is swing?" angle gere.

J, I'm pretty basic here but Take 5 swings for me. It doesn't swing hard, but there's swing. Poor old third stream - like a half caste child rejected by both parents.

I see a similar thing in jazz as in rock - "no way man, that doesn't rock" ... yet it might still have the loud guitars and gym socks down the pants.

Some people demand that the fire of a music at its conception never be lost as it evolves, while others are happy to sacrifice the fire somewhat to stretch out.
 
Enjoying the "what is swing?" angle gere.

J, I'm pretty basic here but Take 5 swings for me. It doesn't swing hard, but there's swing. Poor old third stream - like a half caste child rejected by both parents.

I see a similar thing in jazz as in rock - "no way man, that doesn't rock" ... yet it might still have the loud guitars and gym socks down the pants.

Some people demand that the fire of a music at its conception never be lost as it evolves, while others are happy to sacrifice the fire somewhat to stretch out.

Don't get me wrong, Polly, I'm only speaking as a non-Brubeck fan. Everyone hears and feels music differently. When someone starts talking about what music is supposed to be about, that's when I either get very bored or very suspicious.

Looks to me as though the topic of this thread has disappeared into the valley of forgotten topics, and in a small way I'm relieved. I'm not adamant enough anymore to push an agenda that will probably result in someone getting offended.

All I want to say is that in the music shown and heard in the link, the drums can absolutely swing, albeit with a little "harrumph" here and there.
 
When someone starts talking about what music is supposed to be about, that's when I either get very bored or very suspicious.

I agree, you either feel the music, or you don't, no explanation, reasoning or what is supposed to be about in whatever context can change your opinion :)
 
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