Really? The drums themselves sound good?

I'm run down right now, really run down. Just slept for 6 hours after 72 hours straight without sleep. I'm gigging tonight, & I'll be screwed over for that too. So why the tiredness Andy?

I've spent the last week designing a floor tom leg & bass drum spur bracket system. Why the hell would someone in their right mind, spend probably 80 hours of their own time, & $10,000 of their own money, prototyping a freakin' bracket to hold a piece of bar? It ain't rocket science, right? I mean, it's not as if there aren't already some pretty good brackets I could go & buy, so why reinvent the wheel?

I can tell you all, that the motivation for this apparent insanity has bugger all to do with some surface hype feature opportunity, it has everything to do with designing something that makes a worthwhile difference to the instrument sound. A floor tom leg bracket? A bass drum spur bracket? Really, are you nuts mate? No, not nuts, I've done the testing, I mean, I'VE REALLY DONE THE TESTING. I may be many things, but I'm not a deluded idiot who spends time & money reworking something just to get a leg up in the hype game.

As a small & fairly unknown maker, unlike the big guys, if we claim something offers an improvement, we'd better damn well be prepared to prove it. These new drums will be released for press scrutiny over the next few months, & at our price point, if we can't deliver on our promises, we're screwed. More accurately, I'm screwed.

So, to conclude, I get the distain for benign advertising stereotype promo claims, but to even start to suggest that there's no value in making something better, as you can imagine, REALLY winds me up. Before I started all this development crap, I had to prove the value in developing something to myself, before I even started to think in terms of proving it to others. The one person you can't lie to, is yourself.

I do get the catalyst for this premise though. Multiple industry claims of "this is better" or "that is better", without truly delivering on the hype, has instilled, quite rightly, a scepticism amongst drummers. For my sake, I only hope I can convey the worthwhile differences I know exist, to an audience that's sick & tired of being fed the same old claims.

Sorry for the mini rant, but there's so many devaluing & sweeping comments in this thread, It makes me question wether my efforts are all for nothing, & that's a pretty crap feeling when you know you can make a difference.


Hey, I'm not devaluing what your doing. It's just the crappy quotes most big firms use that riles people up.
I like companies to show you their new features in step by step pics, how it works etc. not just some famous guy standing there saying 'they sound good'. It kind of devalues the artist I think.

I thought your post/rant was great actually and the only one on this thread from that particular view-point. Bigger companies often change a feature give it a ridiculous name and that's as far as it goes but, like you said as a smaller company if you don't prove you're new feature is not just as good as but better than others then reviewers are going to come down hars on it like you've spat in their dinner or something.

Interesting stuff and you've got me curious about these floot tom and bass drum leg/support things. How about doing a thread on them, showing us pics and stuff?

I wanna see!
 
Sorry for the mini rant, but there's so many devaluing & sweeping comments in this thread, It makes me question wether my efforts are all for nothing, & that's a pretty crap feeling when you know you can make a difference.

Andy, I don't know too much about gear and hardware, but I know the difference between quality construction and value-engineered crap. Something can be improved with new bells and whistles as a developer envisions it, but once it leaves R&D, it goes through some process where the materials are chosen. This is where a lot of companies fall flat in my book because they tend to do just as much as they can get away with by choosing cheaper alloys, or plating or manufacturing processes. People buy the shiny, new products and find themselves with equipment that just can't hold up.

The more I hear about Guru drums, the more I am impressed with the company and its dedication to a quality product. It's cool to have this little window into your company that you provide. There's no doubt yours drums are at the top of my list by now.
 
Hey, I'm not devaluing what your doing. It's just the crappy quotes most big firms use that riles people up.
I know :) I'm not taking this thread as a personal judgement.

There is a malaise amongst the drum buying fraternity, & I fully understand where that's coming from. The "polished" demo's by endorsees, audio augmented video presentations, glib tag lines without detail or substance, it's no wonder that players who've been around a bit have a built in scepticism.

As for what I've been doing with floor tom & bass drum brackets, I just used that as an example of some of the real innovation that's going on behind the scenes. It seems like a somewhat benign detail to be throwing time & money at, but it's part of a much bigger program of radical & blue sky drum design. There's no point in me showing this work in isolation, because on it's own, it's of no benefit to standard drums. The art of designing anything that's truly groundbreaking, is to focus every detail on the end result, such that everything contributes to the whole. The end result should always be greater than the sum of it's parts.

Many drum companies "bolt on" new features, simply to keep the product fresh, & to give the impression of moving forward. Rather similar to car companies facelifting a model every year or so. The substrate remains the same, but the public face of the product is new in the eyes of the buyer. Almost all innovation is marketing lead, or at the very least, heavily marketing influenced. It's actually very difficult for larger companies to really get behind true blue sky development. Not only are many managed by committee, but most are scared of upsetting their existing client base by straying too far from tested formula, hence the introduction of new colour schemes, finishes, etc. It's pretty safe territory for those with an eye on cash flow. On the other side side of the business, there's plenty of innovation willingness in the smaller companies, but rarely the financial & marketing muscle to stand any realistic chance of making it happen. Smaller companies know there's a few mountains to climb, irrespective of how good the new drums are. Brand is king, & many drummers buy with their eyes more than their ears, to name but two.

We will be revealing our new range of drums later this year. You'll then have a chance to ascertain wether our claims are just another voice in the marketing chorus ;) As always, details will be posted here before anywhere else, It's the least I can do to repay the wonderful support & advice I've received here.
 
I owed an $8000 Fodera bass and it didn't sound as good as my $200 Squier. It FELT great, but...so what?eatest music in the world on a budget instrument.

I'll bet you $1000 that you can not tell the difference on a recording between a good $500 guitar and a $5000 guitar. No one can. So, it's all subjective. If you like the gold plated diamond studded snare drum... great. But is it "better?"

+1

My dad is a guitarist and he has a few guitars. He's got a Vintage Strat, A PRS SE Custom, An EVH and a couple of acoustics. I have a Squier Tele (because I'm not much of a guitar player, I just pick it up and mess around most of the time) but my friend/bandmate has a Squier Stratocaster (A Standard one, not a bullet or affinity) and he uses it at gigs. He could use his ESP Ltd. or his Epiphone SG or even his Brian May. But he decides to use the Strat because it's his favourite and it can do everything he wants. My dad even says it sounds and plays amazingly and has even contemplated buying one. Though, we have no more room for guitars haha!
 
I'm run down right now, really run down. Just slept for 6 hours after 72 hours straight without sleep. I'm gigging tonight, & I'll be screwed over for that too. So why the tiredness Andy?

I've spent the last week designing a floor tom leg & bass drum spur bracket system. Why the hell would someone in their right mind, spend probably 80 hours of their own time, & $10,000 of their own money, prototyping a freakin' bracket to hold a piece of bar? It ain't rocket science, right? I mean, it's not as if there aren't already some pretty good brackets I could go & buy, so why reinvent the wheel?

I can tell you all, that the motivation for this apparent insanity has bugger all to do with some surface hype feature opportunity, it has everything to do with designing something that makes a worthwhile difference to the instrument sound. A floor tom leg bracket? A bass drum spur bracket? Really, are you nuts mate? No, not nuts, I've done the testing, I mean, I'VE REALLY DONE THE TESTING. I may be many things, but I'm not a deluded idiot who spends time & money reworking something just to get a leg up in the hype game.

As a small & fairly unknown maker, unlike the big guys, if we claim something offers an improvement, we'd better damn well be prepared to prove it. These new drums will be released for press scrutiny over the next few months, & at our price point, if we can't deliver on our promises, we're screwed. More accurately, I'm screwed.

So, to conclude, I get the distain for benign advertising stereotype promo claims, but to even start to suggest that there's no value in making something better, as you can imagine, REALLY winds me up. Before I started all this development crap, I had to prove the value in developing something to myself, before I even started to think in terms of proving it to others. The one person you can't lie to, is yourself.

I do get the catalyst for this premise though. Multiple industry claims of "this is better" or "that is better", without truly delivering on the hype, has instilled, quite rightly, a scepticism amongst drummers. For my sake, I only hope I can convey the worthwhile differences I know exist, to an audience that's sick & tired of being fed the same old claims.

Sorry for the mini rant, but there's so many devaluing & sweeping comments in this thread, It makes me question wether my efforts are all for nothing, & that's a pretty crap feeling when you know you can make a difference.

As a person who has never subscribed to the theory that 'everything sounds good , just put good heads on and tune them'... I, for one am glad there are people like Andy in this world who really do make a difference and want to raise the bar....and who stand behind the things they are creating. Progress!
Sure, advertising agencies make grand, erroneous claims about drums....what else is new? Show me an industry where that is not the case - I would think most of us are kind of immune to it by now.
Lastly, I think there are SO MANY other things that play into distinguishing one drum from another - that have nothing to do with sound. Right or wrong, people make instrument purchase decisions based on nothing other than appearance...or hardware...or the portability...etc etc etc
Best,
Neal
 
Of course, me getting a Guru drum set is just a pipe dream. I'm pretty poor.

Buying a Gibson guitar was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made.

After all the posts and threads I've read, I've decided to just stick with the Tama brand. I've never been disappointed, I've played them for years and years and years. Nothing wrong with brand loyalty, right?

I'm done here. I have nothing left to say. Enjoy!
 
Well, keep it simple - you're a good talker! You sound passionate and I'd love to check your drums out. I haven't (knowingly) heard any Guru drums but, have heard only great things about them.

I absolutely love my Mapex kit, I got so excited about the floor tom legs having springs to increase resonance but really? They don't make any difference, the springs are actually pretty stiff, I'm a big guy and I hit hard and I don't think even at my loudest level I make any of those 3 legs springs move. I tried to find a way to loosen them but couldn't figure it out.
So, I think that was a marketing gimmick, a good one 'cos it played on my insecurities about the floor tom not resonating as much as the racks and really made me want the kit more. I got done!

Love the kit though, sounds perfect, actually perfect! And the crap gimmick doesn't make any sound difference but, makes me feel better in my head...

I think these tricks are used by many companies to 'steal' custom as the deciding factor in tipping the scales in their direction.

I'm sure the springs could work if they were looser though?
 
Thank heavens for the Andy's of the world. Actually, I think Andy is in a class by himself. You'd be hard pressed to find a finer mind. Andy has a heart of gold, the mind of a innovative, out of the box engineer, but it's his attitude of no compromise for the final goal that I greatly admire. Guru drums are definitely in my future. I personally think Guru drums will be the best on earth, after the new design elements are perfected.
 
I, for one am glad there are people like Andy in this world who really do make a difference and want to raise the bar....and who stand behind the things they are creating. Progress!
Thank heavens for the Andy's of the world. Actually, I think Andy is in a class by himself. You'd be hard pressed to find a finer mind. Andy has a heart of gold, the mind of a innovative, out of the box engineer, but it's his attitude of no compromise for the final goal that I greatly admire.

I couldn't agree more with you gentlemen.

Really, I brought this all up to get a rise out of Andy ;)
I'm trying to get him to play less drums on a gig. And definitely less cymbals.

:)

Well, keep it simple - you're a good talker!

No kidding :) ...an extremely knowledgable guy of drum making process and the english language with an exquisite british humour (and good tastes in drummers)
 
However, while Steve Gadd can make a cardboard box sound good he doesn't choose to play them at gigs. Why does he play Yammies? Why did Bonzo play Luddies and not a old low Aria kit? Because they clearly sound better. Many great drummers have worked with companies to develop drums that respond the way they want them to.

Obviously we can all debate the relative importance of playing and equipment till the cows come home but none of this will change the mind of any dedicated gear heads. For them, drums are boys' toys that rank with gadgets and other arcane pieces of machinery as objects of fascination for numerous males. I don't geddit but I guess I'm not meant to :)

This is a great post and a viewpoint I very much agree with. I agree to a point with Bo and most of the other posters, in that ultimately, it's the musician who has the biggest influence on the "quality" of sound emanating from their instrument. However as Polly stated, when given the choice to play a cardboard box, Aria, or Yamaha RC it's pretty clear which most would choose. The quality of construction, the choice of considerably thought out hardware innovations, the raw materials, the skill of the builder and the visual aesthetic all contribute to an instrument being sold at a higher cost to the consumer. To me the benefit of owning such and instrument is that the result is a far sturdier, more user friendly instrument. With a low end mass produce instrument, sure you can get a good sound, but likely at the expense of having to spend more than an average amount of time tuning and swapping heads until you're "there". Once there will it stay in tune, if so how long, will the hardware break down, again if so how long will it take? These are concerns that are far less likely when you are buying a kit from a builder who is taking these things into consideration when constructing your drums. A great kit is typically very easy to tune (although not always the case), stays in tune and will not be so confined to a certain head choice. The biggest advantage is the reward of not having to spend a lot of time trying to get your kit sounding good and rather spending that time playing and enjoying your instrument. Great drums feel better, give more back, have a wider dynamic range and to me are for more inspiring to play then less thought out, insta-kits sitting in warehouses around the world. Again this is not to say that there don't exist low cost alternatives that when compared to their much higher siblings, sound and feel nearly as good. Rather my point is, that the thought, hard work and r&d put into the construction, absolutely results in a better experience for the user. I am very interested in building drums and am learning a lot about it lately. My respect for the skill needed to make an instrument that succeeds in giving the user the desired experience has grown ten fold in the past months. I truly believe that there are differences in how good a drum can sound that go beyond just the ability of the user. If not, then why bother making them any different at all? A world full of workhorse Pearl Exports would not be nearly as satisfying in my opinion.

@Andy I love the passion you are expressing regarding this topic and for many reasons had already been intrigued by the ultra thin stave and steambent shells that you guys are making at GURU. I wish you great success and would love an opportunity to try one of your drums. Had I known more about your company before ordering my last kit I might already be an owner. Who knows what the future might hold and I will certainly be following GURU.
 
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Really, I brought this all up to get a rise out of Andy ;)
I'm trying to get him to play less drums on a gig. And definitely less cymbals.
I will play with less kit Bo, but only when the gig calls for it. Deciding what kit is best suited to the gig is just another area of artistic interpretation. Please remember, many moons ago, I toured the UK over a period of 9 months with just bass drum, snare, hats, two crashes & a ride.

Your kit suits you Bo, & it's also a testament to your skill level. My kit suits me too, but I'm going to throw you a little victory here :) At last nights gig, I worked out that I only used one of my splashes 3 times, & although I like the flavour of this little pie, I can afford to lose it without detriment to the music. So, you win ;)

Great drums feel better, give more back, have a wider dynamic range and to me are for more inspiring to play then less thought out, insta-kits sitting in warehouses around the world.
Rather my point is, that the thought, hard work and r&d put into the construction, absolutely results in a better experience for the user.
This is an element often missing from these polarised discussions. I completely agree that the most important element of a good sound are the players themselves. It's what they put into the instrument that produces so much. But it's a two way thing, as their input is shaped by what the instrument gives back.

BTW Smatch, I thought your entire post was superb!

I'd also like to thank everyone else who's made both valid points, & offered some degree of praise in my direction. Not completely warranted, but gratefully received non the less.
 
I will play with less kit Bo, but only when the gig calls for it. Deciding what kit is best suited to the gig is just another area of artistic interpretation. Please remember, many moons ago, I toured the UK over a period of 9 months with just bass drum, snare, hats, two crashes & a ride.

Your kit suits you Bo, & it's also a testament to your skill level. My kit suits me too, but I'm going to throw you a little victory here :) At last nights gig, I worked out that I only used one of my splashes 3 times, & although I like the flavour of this little pie, I can afford to lose it without detriment to the music. So, you win ;)

Wow! And me without a video camera! You know I'm kidding - we love you playing everything you have ;)
 
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