greatly need help from experienced drummers

ekloot

Junior Member
Hi,
I'm a guitar player in a band (but I also play drums myself). In my band my drummer frequently hiccups during fills and then comes out of them upside down on the beat...meaning suddenly the snare is hitting on a count where the bass drum normally would and the bass drum is hitting on a count where the snare normally would. This obviously screws up the groove. This happens about once every practice or every other practice. When it happens, he typically doesn't correct...he just stays upside down on the beat and the rest of us have to purposely miss a beat and correct to him...which is super hard when I'm singing. Is this something that frequently happens to drummers? It has never happened to myself or any drummer I've ever seen playing in a band. The other members in the band say that when the beat suddenly goes upside down like this...it is up to the rest of us to hang on a note for an extra beat or skip a beat and correct to the drummer but I say the drummer should immediately correct and come back in on the right beat. Who's correct?

The other thing is that the drummer plays to a metronome click in his in-ear monitors. So when he ends up upside down...he's perfectly upside down but still right with the click. I sometimes think he isn't really listening to the rest of the band and is just listening to the click in his ear monitors because he'll occasionally start playing sections of songs a measure or two early...such as going to the chorus before the verse ends on songs that we've been playing a for quite a while. At our last show, he went upside down on the beat during one song...and afterwards mentioned that he didn't patch any of our amps into his ear monitors so he wasn't able to hear anything from the rest of us...so he just relied on the fact that he has all the sections of the songs counted out and sometimes just plays by just having all the counts memorized. Is it normal for drummers to just play without being able to hear the rest of the group? When I drum with other musicians I don't have anything counted out. I just listen to everyone else and know where I'm at in the song by just knowing how the song goes. I also never get upside down on the beat because I am listening to everyone else and just instinctively know where the bass drum and snare drum should hit by listening to the music going on around me. I would like to hear some professional drummers thoughts on these things. Am I right about this stuff or am I crazy?
 
Your drummer has got to do a few things differently ro pretty soon he'll find himself in the unwanted position of playing for nobody, with no calls coming in. I wouldn't want to play in a band with someone who can't fix something simple like this.

He could try to upgrade to a different click that uses different voices for downbeat and backbeat (I have a very basic BOSS Dr. beat that does this, along with a flashing light on four). That way he can see where the 1, the 2, should be.

Under no circumstances should he be NOT listening to the rest of the band. That is part of what is causing his problem. You should pretty much insist on this.

An easy way to illustrate this issue to him would be to record the band, catch several of these hiccups, and play it back to him, with the rest of the band as a united front. He will either take the hint and work on it, or get hurt feelings and quit... in which case you have a great chance of getting a drummer who DOESN'T screw up the time.
 
Alparrott,
I think you're absolutely right on every point you mentioned. And the Boss Dr. Beat with the different voices is a great suggestion. One other musician I know mentioned something like this too...so I will look into it. The drummer is aware of the hiccups and the upside down beat thing...and it has been captured and he's heard it on recordings. He's a good guy and works very hard in the band and genuinely feels bad and is usually aware when he messes up like this...and knows it aggravates me. The strange thing is that aside from these couple things...he's actually a pretty good drummer...but this seems like stuff that should have already been fixed by now since he's been playing for like 14 years. I told him that occasionally stumbling on fills and stuff will happen to everyone because nobody is perfect but flipping the beat upside down is one of the worst mistakes a drummer can make in my mind. His response is that he's still perfectly on time with the metronome click when he gets upside down so he doesn't understand why ending up upsidedown throws me off so incredibly badly? I don't think he understands that I have a strong sense of the natural groove so when it flip flops in a split second...it throws me completely off...plus when you're singing at the same time it makes it even harder to correct since you have to stop singing to find where the rhythm suddenly just went to. The rest of the band is aware of this issue too and they definately get thrown off for a couple seconds when it happens. However when this occurs and I stress how big of a problem this is...the other guys in the band have actually told me that it isn't a huge deal and "it happens" and that I need to get better at correcting and adjusting to when the drummer misses a beat and ends up upside down!! Very frustrating. To me, if you're truly feeling the natural groove of the song...I don't get how you can end up flip flopping on the beat. When I play the drums (and I do in a separate band)...I almost can't make myself randomly turn the beat upside down even if I try on purpose...unless that is what the song is supposed to do at a certain section of course.
 
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If the other players are not being supportive of the issue, that's no help at all. And I totally agree with you, 14 years is a bit long for someone to still be dealing with such a basic issue.

You say the other members say "that happens". Not for bands that get gigs and make records, it doesn't! (The sole exception being Charlie Watts on "Start Me Up".) Maybe you guys don't have those sort of aspirations, and that's all fine, but if they do, they had best get hold of their musicianship and make an effort to improve this problem with you as a team. Otherwise, I'd give these guys an "adios, amigos!" and go find another band which prides itself on its presentation and musicianship - which appear to be qualities you value.
 
His response is that he's still perfectly on time with the metronome click when he gets upside down so he doesn't understand why ending up upsidedown throws me off so incredibly badly?.

hah that mistake is probably the biggest groove killer of all if he cant see that he shouldnt be playing music
it actually happened to me yesterday at a rehearsal because i came back ugly from a fancy fill (kinda like when your mind goes numb while you play and you dont plan how the fill will sound like before you play it) but i just fixed it. its IMPOSSIBLE even from non musicians to not notice this.. its like playing odd time with the drums underneath the song lol
 
Your drummer needs to learn how to listen to the band. This is extremely important for *any* musician.

Yes, you should be able to adapt to a mistake like that. Everyone should be able to adapt to small mistakes here and there. But this isn't an occasional screw up. This is a fundamental problem with his playing: he doesn't listen.

Do what you can to help him improve. You completely understand the nature of the problem. So if he can fix it, great, but if not, you need to find another drummer (or switch to playing drums and singing at the same time! :D)
 
In my earlier days of drumming, I was guilty of doing this from time to time. When it happened, I knew right away that it did (because I was listening, and it also didn't "feel" right). I learned to take the mistake and work with it, like turning into a brief reference to Purple Haze, or using it as an extension of the previous fill, until I got back on the "correct" beat. These were just bandages, covering up a wound, though, and I'd recommend that your drummer work on this problem. The first step is recognizing and accepting that you have a problem...
 
Thanks for all the input guys. And yes, our band actually does have aspirations for getting far in the music business...which is why this is very important to me. When the beat suddenly flips upside down it "feels" so rotten to me that I just want to throw up. And Hedon...you're right...it's a huge groove killer and it sounds like the drums playing an odd timing underneath the song...until the rest of us flip to match it obviously. I've never seen any professional bands have this happen live...I've never seen this happen to any band live for that matter. I think you all are right and a lack of listening is the culprit here. I listen to every other instrument in the band whether I'm playing guitar or drums and so I guess I just know exactly where I'm at and what the rhythm is by listening to the music around me. The guys in the band are all great guys and I really enjoy playing with them...I just don't understand how everyone doesn't think this is a big deal that should be fixed...and I have no clue why they don't back me up on this. Like I said earlier, people will make mistakes and there are other types of goof ups that drummers will occasionally make...i fumble on the drums every once in a while myself...but suddenly flip flopping the groove and beat of the song seems like a cardinal sin for a drummer to make in a band.
 
Instead of getting mad at your drummer, try something like this. Maybe it will show him that he is making the mistake....

Play from the verse to the chours and have him play straight through, without any fills...
If he stays on the click and doesn't alter the beat at all everything should come out fine by the time you play into the chorus, right? That will show him that he is the one making the mistake and not you guys.
 
you need to use a click with a downbeat accent this will show him where the mistake is.

It is acceptable in practice, everybody messes up every now and then, and plays a fill that doesn't land right. it's just taking chances and sometimes it messes up.

If it happens in practice you need to stop the song and address the information. tell him he needs to figure out a proper fill to have the beat land right, and stick to that fill only, or just take the fills out all together.

If it happens in a show the only thing you can do is try to get back on beat, the show must go on, and if that means the whole band has to bend the beat to match the drummer so be it.

a singer that i gig with has no formal training and he actually does alot of flipping the beat, and he does not get it. I try to explain it to him and he just doesn't care. We have a ballad in 6/8 and he will double up the downbeat sometimes even play the downbeat three times in a row to add space between his phrases. There is nothing we can do but just try to follow him. I tried playing the song in 3/4 but it doesn't work without the backbeat on 4. I actually decided it is cool now becuase we are throwing in different time signatures. we have another song that is in 9/8 but it actually stays in 9/8 the whole time. pretty funny to me becuase we are not playing anything complicated or fusion at all.

We have this other song that has a change from half time to full time and the first time he does the switch there is an 8 beat transition, the second time he does the switch there is 6 beat transition. I tried to explain it to him and teach him the right way, but his opinion is that if I can follow him thats all that matters.

Sometimes you have to live with this stuff just make the song go on, or keep the gig. pray that the audience doesn't have any other musicians in it and try to make it sound smooth.
 
oh, the drummer is completely aware when he's messed up and that he has flipped the beat upside down...at least most of the time anyways. He's also very strict about playing the exact same fills every single time...the problem is that occasionally he'll accidentally hit an extra hit during a fill or miss a single hit during a fill so he'll suddenly be off exactly one hit going into the next section of the song. I think he treats his drum parts like a series of memorized and chained together hits...so if he accidentally forgets one hit...he's suddenly off by one beat. So as long as he doesn't forget a single thing, all is perfect. He has all his drum parts and fills memorized and counted out exactly. He'll even sometimes practice the entire setlist by himself with nobody else there and no music playing at all. I kind of think that is bad, because it means that when we all play together, he might likely still be playing on his own inside his own head...without listening to the rest of the instruments as much as he should. When I play drums in another band that I'm in...I'm completely the opposite. In the other band, if the other musicians aren't playing (and there is no music playing), then I pretty much will get lost eventually because I only know where all my fills and changes happen by listening to the other instruments and vocals around me.
 
Hi,
Am I right about this stuff or am I crazy?

I would say yes, you are correct. If this drummer is having these problems regularly, I suggest you need a replacement.

As for not listening to the band and operating only with the click? I would not suffer such disrespect for a moment. If what you say is accurate, this drummer has a bad attitude.

Replace him.
 
My first and biggest advice would be to exile the metronome from band indefinitely. Don't allow it the room - period.

It is a great tool used in its proper place. And its proper place is not as a crutch to avoid actually learning to play music together as a group. At least for awhile, quit trying to play the exactly correct tempo marked on a piece of paper. Choose a tempo that feels right - that day - and try to play there.

Start playing together as a band, instead of guys overdubbing individual parts all at the same time. Because a band that play together reasonable by themselves is just going play worse with a click joining the party.

OK - so if you actually do this for while - and I mean till things drastically improve. And if they don't improve - then you may have problems beyond whether to use a click or not.

Anyway - after things improve a lot - if you collectively (after listening to rehearsal tapes) feel you really need to use a click for some or all tunes, then bring it back into your rehearsals. But don't start back with it just in the drummer's phones - everybody needs to hear it, at least for awhile (just slam it through the PA/monitors).

A band that feels good is one where everybody plays in time - not just sort-of follows along with the drummer. So bringing the click back in is going to square off a lot of what you've been practicing - including some stuff that probably felt pretty good. Sometimes it feels great if the bridge is a bit slower, or the chorus bumps just a teeny smidge. Now with the click, you don't get to have those moments - it's got to stay metronomically in time. And everybody should be involved in getting used to it - directly from the click. Not second hand - by pulling and tugging against the drummer... fighting him every step of the way.

Then when that gets comfortable - put whoever still needs the click on phones and everyone else just keep playing it the way you've been. Even if only the drummer is playing to a click.

But none this matters at all until you can first play the songs pretty well together without the click.

Best of luck with this.

David
 
oh, the drummer is completely aware when he's messed up and that he has flipped the beat upside down...at least most of the time anyways. He's also very strict about playing the exact same fills every single time...the problem is that occasionally he'll accidentally hit an extra hit during a fill or miss a single hit during a fill so he'll suddenly be off exactly one hit going into the next section of the song. I think he treats his drum parts like a series of memorized and chained together hits...so if he accidentally forgets one hit...he's suddenly off by one beat. So as long as he doesn't forget a single thing, all is perfect. He has all his drum parts and fills memorized and counted out exactly. He'll even sometimes practice the entire setlist by himself with nobody else there and no music playing at all. I kind of think that is bad, because it means that when we all play together, he might likely still be playing on his own inside his own head...without listening to the rest of the instruments as much as he should. When I play drums in another band that I'm in...I'm completely the opposite. In the other band, if the other musicians aren't playing (and there is no music playing), then I pretty much will get lost eventually because I only know where all my fills and changes happen by listening to the other instruments and vocals around me.


Well having the parts memorized, and played exactly the same every time is not exactly my cup of tea, but there isn't anything wrong with per se.

But memorizing drum parts as long strings of notes with attaching "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" (or whatever) to them is a recipe for disaster. Almost all music is in beats, which grouped together form bars, etc. - staying within those beat/bar is absolutely "Job #1" - particularly for a drummer for chrissakes!

Anyway, again good luck with this.

David
 
im interested if this drummer can handle odd times and rhythmic changes such as going half time etc?
 
My first and biggest advice would be to exile the metronome from band indefinitely. Don't allow it the room - period.
100% correct advice. If you can't keep time in a live band situation without a click there's something badly wrong. The only exception may be when playing to a complicated sequencer in a different time signature otherwise the sequence becomes the click. Clicks are for certain studio applications and practice only in my opinion. I know I'll get flamed for that but the more you rely on a click, the less intuitive your natural timing becomes.
 
Everybody here seems to have pretty good advice. I would definately rather not replace the drummer if at all possible...he's a good friend of mine and aside from a couple of these really bad habits...he's actually a good drummer. I actually have brought up that I would like us to have some band practices where he isn't using the metronome because he's way too reliant on it...and needs to listen to the rest of us more. He has admitted that it's become a crutch for him...but he has yet to try practicing the set without it. His methods of counting all the parts out and relying heavily on the click doesn't seem like any fun to me since you can't possibly be feeling the music nearly as much...plus if I played like that, it would make me susceptible to mistakes much more frequently.

Hedon...to answer your question. We haven't really had any songs with odd time signatures. I think that would be a disaster for him actually. There is one song that I wrote with a different type of rhythm where every other snare hit during the chorus is supposed to come in a 1/16th note earlier than the cymbal hit that is struck on each beat throughout all the measures of the chorus. It's some sort of groove beat that I decided to use when I wrote the song. I've heard other bands use the same type of beat in songs so it's nothing wierd. This beat has given him trouble for months. When he didn't get it right...the snare hit that is supposed to come in a 1/16th note earlier than the crash would lag to the point of almost hitting exactly when the crash did instead of a 1/16th note earlier. He's finally starting to play it fairly close to correct now. I've been able to hop on the drums and do that beat perfectly from the beginning though. In terms of halftime and stuff. He's typically good with that stuff. Occasionally, it gives him some trouble at times especially when a song is new...and every once in a while on older songs he'll have a little trouble getting to halftime and will pause on the snare for a hit or two until he figures out what he's supposed to be doing...like he's trying to decide where he should hit it or something.

Aside from all that stuff I think he probably needs to also change his technique a bit because he breaks his top-of-the-line Zildgian cymbals every 10 to 14 months and chews up a pair of fairly heavy duty drums sticks every week or two and has to buy new ones. That issue doesn't matter much to me though since it's his money and not my own.
 
Aside from all that stuff I think he probably needs to also change his technique a bit because he breaks his top-of-the-line Zildgian cymbals every 10 to 14 months and chews up a pair of fairly heavy duty drums sticks every week or two and has to buy new ones. That issue doesn't matter much to me though since it's his money and not my own.

I know exactly what he's doing wrong there. I bet it's his crash cymbals that crack constantly, right? He's hitting them on the rim with the shaft of his stick at a perpendicular angle instead of hitting them with the tip of the stick in a downward motion. The end result is that it beats the shit out of the cymbals and turns the sticks into dust in days. I used to do this all the time. :p Learned the hard way.
 
Buddhasmash...yeah, it's the crash cymbals. I already had told him that he needs to angle them more and maybe lower them more because he is probably hitting them too perpendicularly. He said he knows about all that stuff and claims he's tried it all already, but the cymbals still break and the sticks still get all chewed up. Plus, he said he likes the way they sound better when they sit a little more flat and he hits them. I can't really tell the difference in the sound either way. If it were me though, I'd rather have my cymbals last at least a few years and play them they way they were meant to be played. It's his money though so I guess that's up to him.
 
A sticky wicket for sure.
From where I'm sitting, I see a few options.

Gently harp on him until he corrects himself, stop the band (at rehearsals) when he commits this heinous act, spotlight the culprit, and practice with him until he gets it.
Let him know you're trying out other drummers (light a fire under his throne?)
Replace him.

I don't see why you want to keep him if he isn't feeling anything and needs assistance from a click. Upside down beat problem, even if it's the only problem, is pretty close to deal breaking. That's like a singer who forgets the words, unacceptable. He's not doing his job. I feel for the guy but cmon! The poor dancers! The senselessness! The humiliation! Lo your heart must be heavy....
 
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