Waffling around the kit

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That's what we in the trade call "an education", usually considered to be a good thing. You don't have to study everyone, but despite what your assertion to the contrary (based on what, I don't know), Roach is one of the great innovators of the instrument. For people who are serious about music, it's worth making an effort to understand why.
Your implication that I'm not serious and that I'm oblivious to "education" (and your tone throughout this thread) is what helps keep the modern jazz player negative stereotype alive and well. Keep up with the condescending stuff, it's following a well worn path.

Do you really think that all your long-gone heroes would be playing that same stuff if they were just now coming up? Very doubtful. They were contemporary in their time and therefore would likely be contemporary in ours - they would be the Benny Grebs or the Aaron Spears players. Not reverent anthropologists trying to keep a dead form from dying any further.

The major of my "education" is much more concerned with what is new. I don't care nearly as much about how things evolved 50 years ago.
 
That's what we in the trade call "an education", usually considered to be a good thing. You don't have to study everyone, but despite what your assertion to the contrary (based on what, I don't know), Roach is one of the great innovators of the instrument. For people who are serious about music, it's worth making an effort to understand why.

Christ mate.......leave it alone. He doesn't have to like Roach.....he doesn't have to like anyone. That's the beauty of it.....there's enough music out there to satisfy everyone's tastes.

Be content that you've found something special in MR's playing and let it be. Whether others 'get him' or not shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of his body of work. Time to move on :)
 
They were contemporary in their time and therefore would likely be contemporary in ours - they would be the Benny Grebs or the Aaron Spears players.

A bit of a digression but I had never heard of Benny Greb and recently saw a clip of him on the DW clinic pages. What a beautiful player! He can make the simplest pattern sound wonderful. Love to hear more about him; he seems to play with people I've not heard of.
 
Your implication that I'm not serious and that I'm oblivious to "education" (and your tone throughout this thread) is what helps keep the modern jazz player negative stereotype alive and well. Keep up with the condescending stuff, it's following a well worn path.

Well, listen, when you insist on making derogatory statements about a great musician (that's not just my opinion, that is a damn near universal consensus among listeners, artists and writers), while admitting you know nothing about his work, and refusing to look further, what does that make you? A scholar? I'm sorry if you think I'm being condescending, but those are not the characteristics of someone who is serious about music.
 
I think it's fair enough for Mike to say he doesn't "get" Max Roach. In other words, he doesn't see why he has such a great rep whereas he can understand the fuss about Papa Jo, Elvin and Tony.

I can see where he's coming from. My understanding of jazz drumming is rudimentary so I don't see why some of the lauded greats are put on a higher echelon than some others who seem just as good to my ears. As Mike said, from an outsider's standpoint if a jazz drummer doesn't appeal in a visceral sense, then that's someone we'd be likely to pass by.

Insiders see the subtleties and find it hard to understand how others can miss them. Outsiders miss the subtleties and wonder what the fuss is about. As far as I can tell, in any genre, the players with sensitive compositional sensibilities are the ones that tend not to interest outsiders.
 
I really don't care if he likes him or not; I'd settle for him just not crapping on him.

Yeah, no worries mate. I just didn't think your posts read that way initially. Anyways, not my fight.....sorry I got involved. I guess I just resented seeing MikeM under (perceived) attacked for holding a differing opinion, that was purely based around personal taste.....after all, this is what makes the forum great IMHO.

Cheers.
 
I think it's fair enough for Mike to say he doesn't "get" Max Roach. In other words, he doesn't see why he has such a great rep whereas he can understand the fuss about Papa Jo, Elvin and Tony.

I can see where he's coming from. My understanding of jazz drumming is rudimentary so I don't see why some of the lauded greats are put on a higher echelon than some others who seem just as good to my ears. As Mike said, from an outsider's standpoint if a jazz drummer doesn't appeal in a visceral sense, then that's someone we'd be likely to pass by.

Insiders see the subtleties and find it hard to understand how others can miss them. Outsiders miss the subtleties and wonder what the fuss is about. As far as I can tell, in any genre, the players with sensitive compositional sensibilities are the ones that tend not to interest outsiders.

P, I appreciate your thoughtful post. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with this. If he had phrased it as nicely as you have, there could've been a constructive discussion. What happened though, is that he resurrected a dead thread so he could talk about how bad he thinks a Max Roach clip is, dismissed the notion that Roach has any kind of special standing historically, then got mad at me for not approving of him. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but come on. You don't see other artists tearing down their masters, allowing novice practitioners to trash them if they don't provide instant enough gratification. It would be unthinkable- absurd- in any other serious pursuit. No wonder people think drummers are a bunch of meathead animals if that's the kind of respect we have for our history.
 
No wonder people think drummers are a bunch of meathead animals
Funny, that's not the feedback I get from the other people and musicians that I associate with. Is that the feedback you're getting? Hmmm. Wonder why that is... (mock wonderment).

In my 30 plus years of drumming, I've found that those most stridently attached to the playing of the old "masters", as you say, are the ones with the least amount to say on the instrument. That would explain your hyper-sensitivity to any critiques on their work.
 
Funny, that's not the feedback I get from the other people and musicians that I associate with. Is that the feedback you're getting? Hmmm. Wonder why that is... (mock wonderment).

In my 30 plus years of drumming, I've found that those most stridently attached to the playing of the old "masters", as you say, are the ones with the least amount to say on the instrument. That would explain your hyper-sensitivity to any critiques on their work.

Hey, this is getting sad, so I'm going to let you go. You can google my name if you want to judge my work. You won't, but you could.
 
You can google my name if you want to judge my work. You won't, but you could.
Hey Todd, just listened to 69 Annee Erotique. As a stupidly simple rock drummer, I'd say it's one of the most interesting jazz based works I've heard in a long time. Superb drumming, especially your cymbal expression. Eminently accessible to my down beat biased brain. Loved it, except for the strings that is. The track, and others I listened to, have such a beautiful open voice, then along come the very thin sounding string parts to glue it all together with gunge. I get the attempt at atmosphere, but all I perceive is fog.

Ok, why is this grossly under qualified drummer bothering to critique your work? It's to highlight the difference in perception. You love the string parts, otherwise you wouldn't have included them. I hate them, probably because I dont "get it", but that's irrelevant as the net result is I dont appreciate their inclusion.

Same process with MikeM. I've read back through the posts and, at no stage do I get the impression that MikeM is "crapping" on Roach. The medium of a forum such as this is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding, and this part of the thread is a classic example of that. My researching the finer historical points of counter harmony is never going to change my perception of the string parts in your (otherwise, IMO) superb music. Similarly, if MikeM researches the progression of Roach so as to understand his execution, that's unlikely to result in MikeM appreciating Roach's style. I doubt he appreciated your insinuation that not digging deeper renders him as a non serious musician. Similarly, my critique of your work shouldn't be dismissed purely on the basis that I'm not fully acquainted with the finer points of string arrangements. Put simply, I didn't get it, therefore I don't appreciate it, therefore I don't like it.
 
You can google my name if you want to judge my work. You won't, but you could.
I did. I went to your myspace page and watched both YouTube videos and listened to the first song and most of the second until I had enough. Consider it judged. I thought it sounded just like you described it: like work. I do like your playing better than Max Roach's, for what that might be worth to you. But that isn't really saying much, since as I already mentioned, I don't really care for the form too much.

Just to show that I'm a good sport, here's one from me for you to judge and mock (single kick for those keeping score). But should at least make it crystal clear that we're coming from two completely different perspectives when it comes to music and drumming.
 
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Hey Todd, just listened to 69 Annee Erotique. As a stupidly simple rock drummer, I'd say it's one of the most interesting jazz based works I've heard in a long time. Superb drumming, especially your cymbal expression. Eminently accessible to my down beat biased brain. Loved it, except for the strings that is. The track, and others I listened to, have such a beautiful open voice, then along come the very thin sounding string parts to glue it all together with gunge. I get the attempt at atmosphere, but all I perceive is fog.

Hey, thanks for giving it a listen. Believe me, I had to expand my idea of what is good to make that record- I had never been into having strings or much of anything in the way of predetermined arrangement, for that matter. Thanks to the amazing musicians and engineer, it turned out to be a pretty unique record, and made a couple of All About Jazz editors', and the jazz guy at the US Library of Congress' best of 2009 lists. Which is kind of bizarre to me. Anyway, the strings are actually from a really cheap Casio keyboard- the keyboardist, Steve Moore, has this crazy lo-fi rig with a Wurlitzer, two Casios and a bunch of effects. Steve is some kind of genius cat, is doing a bunch of stuff with Bill Frissell and Matt Chamberlain, just had stuff on a Jim Jarmusch film soundtrack... he's so busy I probably won't even be able to get him to do the next thing.

Ok, why is this grossly under qualified drummer bothering to critique your work? It's to highlight the difference in perception. You love the string parts, otherwise you wouldn't have included them. I hate them, probably because I dont "get it", but that's irrelevant as the net result is I dont appreciate their inclusion.

Same process with MikeM. I've read back through the posts and, at no stage do I get the impression that MikeM is "crapping" on Roach. The medium of a forum such as this is fraught with the potential for misunderstanding, and this part of the thread is a classic example of that. My researching the finer historical points of counter harmony is never going to change my perception of the string parts in your (otherwise, IMO) superb music. Similarly, if MikeM researches the progression of Roach so as to understand his execution, that's unlikely to result in MikeM appreciating Roach's style. I doubt he appreciated your insinuation that not digging deeper renders him as a non serious musician. Similarly, my critique of your work shouldn't be dismissed purely on the basis that I'm not fully acquainted with the finer points of string arrangements. Put simply, I didn't get it, therefore I don't appreciate it, therefore I don't like it.

KIS, I appreciate what you're saying, but I disagree that this is a simple matter of taste. This is about respect. Most people understand the concept that you do not go around saying bad things about your mother, your father, or your grandparents. You have to either be lacking in common respect, or think very, very little of them to do that. Likewise, in most creative, athletic and professional traditions there is a certain respect paid to the giants of the field- you don't see swimmers talking smack about Mark Spitz, or movie makers about Howard Hawks, martial artists about Bruce Lee, painters about Picasso, or runners about Prefontaine. Most of the people in these fields are also aware of the history of their craft, use it to inform their work, and measure themselves by it- movie people can name for you most or all of the major innovations that led to movies being what they are today, painters are aware of the entire human history of art, back through the medieval guilds, all the way to Lascaux.

I believe that when you take up the drums you become part of a tradition, and there needs to be some understanding of the history and basic filial and professional respect paid to the greats, elders, masters, whatever you want to call them. They are the standard by which all of us players in the street are judged, regardless of whether we are excited by their "style" or their recordings. Respect for them becomes respect for yourself for participating in something worthy.

These are not exotic concepts, and I am not some kind of musical reactionary for advocating them. On this site, however, there seems to be a belief by some that the highest value is the right of individuals to issue summary judgments based on anything or nothing, on anyone and everyone's music. I wasn't just trying to be mean when I said that this is not an attitude of serious musicians; it's actually the attitude of consumers. It's how people treat their choice of toilet paper.

As for the subject at hand, I actually don't consider Roach to be a real direct influence on my own playing. But apart from creating and playing on some of the greatest records ever, he was one of the inventors of the modern language of the instrument, and was one of the most influential guys in turning the drums into a sophisticated melodic voice in its own right. Like I said earlier: no Max Roach, no drums as you know them. He is universally respected as a jazz and drumming great. Usually you want to try to make an effort to figure out what's up with such a person if you don't get it right away. When someone basically says to me that none of that means anything, and that his hastily formed opinion is what's important, in light of my views as above, you can see there are going to be problems.

I know Mike's comments weren't especially bad by internet standards - there was no coupling of "todally" and "sux" or anything - but I hate to think of what would happen if you made the same observations to, say, Ron Carter. You might come away wondering how a man's arms could be that long.

Anyway, the UPS guy just brought me a Wilcoxon book, so I need to go. Thanks again for the thoughtful post. And never apologize for being stupidly simple! tb
 
I did. I went to your myspace page and watched both YouTube videos and listened to the first song and most of the second until I had enough. Consider it judged. I thought it sounded just like you described it: like work. I do like your playing better than Max Roach's, for what that might be worth to you. But that isn't really saying much, since as I already mentioned, I don't really care for the form too much.

Just to show that I'm a good sport, here's one from me for you to judge and mock (single kick for those keeping score). But should at least make it crystal clear that we're coming from two completely different perspectives when it comes to music and drumming.

Thanks for making the effort, and for the link. I'm not really about mocking things, but you're right, it's not really my kind of music. It does serve its purpose perfectly, though, and it's well performed, so good job. tb
 
OK, so a student who lurks here let me know that he thought I was being a little over the top here, and rereading the entire exchange, I can see his point. I get protective about my people, and occasionally challenge others too forcefully when I think they're talking bad about them. What can I say, I do it out of love.

Anyway, Mike, sorry to bite your head off, man. When they come at you and tell you not to rock, disregard it and continue rocking. tb
 
Thanks, Todd. No worries, I have many similar tendencies. You may have noticed one or two, and for that, I apologize.

Cheers,
Mike
 
Love & hugs all round.

Todd, thanks for your reply. I do get where you're coming from, as I do Mike. I was a little harsh about the string parts but that was mainly to highlight a point. On reflection, I think it's more to do with the rather thin string sound than anything else, although I did notice one chord that really clashed for me. Overall, I really like your music although I'm not going to try to work out why. I've mostly given up on analyzing music these days. I'm more towards the like or don't like mindset.
 
i think that some drummers try and do flashy stuff, but compensate for their lack of skills. Kind of like standing up and just banging a drum thats online with you're head. But this is just masterful, he gets the crowd jumping, and while doing so loses no groove at all, demonstrated showmanship and serious skills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6W88dooxgE
 
I get that the playing on a cheese kit is a cool (ie. different) idea, but why an entire room full of people would actually sit through a drum solo that sounds like a frantic circle jerk with occasional cymbal hits is beyond my scope of comprehension.
 
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