Snare recording problem

Rob1n

Junior Member
Hey guys,

Im currently recording using 2 overheads, kick, snare and two tom mics.

The problem is that without the Overheads my snare sounds Perfect but once the overheads are on it sounds weak, boomy and tinny. Is there anyway i can fix this as without the overheads my cymbals sound weak and the kits not as defined but i hate how the snare sounds with the overheads on.

BTW with the overheads off i still have phantom power on and the snare sounds good but when i turn it off it sounds bad.

Thanks :)
 
Give us details. Type of mics, mixer and position of microphones.

Unless your snare has a condensor mic on it, the phantom power really shouldn't be in the equation.

Dennis
 
Hey guys,

Im currently recording using 2 overheads, kick, snare and two tom mics.

The problem is that without the Overheads my snare sounds Perfect but once the overheads are on it sounds weak, boomy and tinny. Is there anyway i can fix this as without the overheads my cymbals sound weak and the kits not as defined but i hate how the snare sounds with the overheads on.

BTW with the overheads off i still have phantom power on and the snare sounds good but when i turn it off it sounds bad.

Thanks :)

Make sure your overhead mics are at equidistant to the snare. You might be getting some phase cancellation (comb filtering) because of the sound arriving at 3 different sources at different time intervals. Also might try "rolling-off" the OH mics in the low-mid region (500hz); Of course this will make the OH mics useful for cymbals only which may or may not be a bad thing... Experiment until you find what works best for you.
 
Its nothing to do with the program, this is all through monitor headphones from the mixer before recording has even started.

My kit is setup basic 5 piece style (2 rack toms one floor) and there are dynamic mics on the snare batter, between rack toms, floor tom and bass drum and the two overheads.
The mixer is a yamaha mx12, 6 XLR inputs.

and i need i need Phantom power on to power the overheads?

My main problem is that close mic'd with no overheads the snare sounds great but once the overheads are thrown into the equation the snare sounds bad.
 
Make sure your overhead mics are at equidistant to the snare. You might be getting some phase cancellation (comb filtering) because of the sound arriving at 3 different sources at different time intervals. Also might try "rolling-off" the OH mics in the low-mid region (500hz); Of course this will make the OH mics useful for cymbals only which may or may not be a bad thing... Experiment until you find what works best for you.

Thanks, Ill try these tommorow morning :D
 
Yes, you'll need phantom power if your microphones are condensers and they don't have an internal battery supply. It sounds as if when you mix in your overheads your overhead microphones levels are too hot compared to that of the snare drum mic. In fact your overheads are acting more like room microphones than that of overheads. Placement of the OHs can be critical depending on the room and kit. There might also be a touch of phase cancellations going on, but I would say back down the overhead's levels a bit to start. You'll probably notice thre more you back down their levels, the more body your snare will develop. I have no idea what your set-up looks like, but after you get your snare in the ballpark you might have to physically lower your OHs to get their gain up again rather than pot up the mixer or you'll be at step one again.

Dennis
 
Thin and tinny snare? Sounds like phase cancellation to me.

The room mics *should* give you a more accurate representation of what your snare ACTUALLY sounds like...close-miking makes it sound punchy and in-your-face, which isn't reality, but it works for most pop/rock music...
 
start flipping the phase on the mics in question. try as many different combination's until it sounds best. there is a phase reverse on most eq plug-ins. it looks like a circle with a diagonal line through it.
to help avoid the problem put you overheads equidistant from your snare. get a string (like 3 feet long). one end of the string goes to the center of your snare then the other end goes to the mics. (one over by the hats and one by the floor tom) each mic should be right at the end of the string. set your mic pre's by making sure your overheads register the volume when hitting your snare. this way you'll have a good centered snare and should be relatively good on phase cancellations.

p.s. the string can be whatever length i just threw that out as a starting point.
 
Thin and tinny snare? Sounds like phase cancellation to me.

The room mics *should* give you a more accurate representation of what your snare ACTUALLY sounds like...close-miking makes it sound punchy and in-your-face, which isn't reality, but it works for most pop/rock music...

Yea thats exactly the sound i like, the punchy and in your face sound.

Ill try making the OH's equidistant and lower their gain, i think that was the problem that their gain was too high. their both around 1.5m from the snare but i guess thats more of a room mic then.

Thanks for the feedback guys ill try it out when i get home :)
 
Thin and tinny snare? Sounds like phase cancellation to me.

Yeah, what he said.

If we're talking about tracks you've already recorded, try reversing the phase of the snare track. There's a software function designed just for that purpose.

If we're talking about problems when you're setting up to record, try flipping the phase on your preamp or board or whatever you're using.

When recording, it's always a good idea to test every mic, one by one, for phase problems with all the other mics. In practise, if there's a problem the overheads usually play a part, so you could just try moving them around. And as you already know, it's very important to have the 2 overhead mics equidistant from the snare.

It's totally worth spending a few hours playing with all the variables so your ears get used to what's causing what.
 
I agree, it's got to be some phase issues. My set up is very close to the OP and I have no problem with phase. While not practical for live purposes it is great for recording. The overheads capture great cymbal response and also a room ambiance.
 

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My mixer doesnt have a phase reversal setting and i dont record multi track so i cant single out a specific mic after ive recorded.

Ive fixed the problem, well atleast found a good compromise between the snare sound and cymbal response, i just repositioned the overheads, lowered their gain, dropped some low-mid eq for them and it seems to be working fine through monitor headphones.

Cant wait to record next week :)

Here are some pics for reference if anyones interested/ wants to tell me to improve something .
Sorry you cant see the kit as a whole with overheads, the rooms just too small haha
 

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The equidistant thing with the overheads applies to space pair, but by the look of your photo, you're using a coincident x/y pair. For one thing, i was always told to position your x/y axes (axis pl.) in a perfect 90 degree right angle, the angle of your mics is too acute, use the corner of a sheet of paper to check the angle. Then the x/y pair should face directly vertical, perpendicular to the floor maybe about a foot or two above the height level of your highest cymbal. Looking at your pics, I'd place the pair right over the low rack tom so that the x mic is facing the hi hat and the y mic is facing the ride. Then i'd experiment with recording that setup, varying the height from which the x/y pair was suspended. If you have an extra mic and extra track channel, i'd also play around with 2 mics on the snare, 1 dynamic sm cardioid underneath, pointed straight up at the snares and the top snare mic about 2 in/ 5cm above the batter head pointed almost parallel to the batter head, straight across.
 
The equidistant thing with the overheads applies to space pair, but by the look of your photo, you're using a coincident x/y pair. For one thing, i was always told to position your x/y axes (axis pl.) in a perfect 90 degree right angle, the angle of your mics is too acute, use the corner of a sheet of paper to check the angle. Then the x/y pair should face directly vertical, perpendicular to the floor maybe about a foot or two above the height level of your highest cymbal. Looking at your pics, I'd place the pair right over the low rack tom so that the x mic is facing the hi hat and the y mic is facing the ride. Then i'd experiment with recording that setup, varying the height from which the x/y pair was suspended. If you have an extra mic and extra track channel, i'd also play around with 2 mics on the snare, 1 dynamic sm cardioid underneath, pointed straight up at the snares and the top snare mic about 2 in/ 5cm above the batter head pointed almost parallel to the batter head, straight across.

Thanks man, yea i used to have them spaced but this seems to work better (mainly room restrictions). Ill definately put them in a 90 degree angle above the floor tom vertically, ive just never tried them like this before.

And i dont have another track on the mixer :( thats why one of the toms isnt mic'd.

Is there anyway i can get more xlr inputs without having to buy a new mixer?
 
Thanks man, yea i used to have them spaced but this seems to work better (mainly room restrictions). Ill definately put them in a 90 degree angle above the floor tom vertically, ive just never tried them like this before.

And i dont have another track on the mixer :( thats why one of the toms isnt mic'd.

Is there anyway i can get more xlr inputs without having to buy a new mixer?

If I were you, I would just move your single rack tom mic over a bit to cover both rack toms. As long as your not using phantom power on the rack tom mic, you could build an XLR "Y" adapter, but you would have to adjust the level from each microphone by the distance to each drum and that's not very feasible with a drum kit.

Dennis
 
If I were you, I would just move your single rack tom mic over a bit to cover both rack toms. As long as your not using phantom power on the rack tom mic, you could build an XLR "Y" adapter, but you would have to adjust the level from each microphone by the distance to each drum and that's not very feasible with a drum kit.

Dennis

Unfourtunately my mixer doesnt allow me to choose what channels have phantom power it sends it to every channel :(.

Back to my usual setup now but thanks for the help man :D
 

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