Is the search for 'perfect' technique just as dangerous as the quest for speed?

JPW said:
Though there aren't any 12th notes on Lang's DVD. At least not on the excercises which I find btw most usefull for anyone who does lots of improvisation. But I guess I should just let it go and be a flesh metronome like every one here tries to teach us to be...
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The existence of twelfth notes is not the issue. I'm glad you got some use out of the exercises on Thomas' DVD. However, the general - i.e. not specific - point is that there is a whole lot of "technique" flying around in electronic form that is beyond the needs and use of the vast majoirity of novice drummers. Can you say that the multiple-pedal independence stuff Thomas demonstrates is the sort of thing a novice drummer ought to be studying? How many gigs will that get you?

The other - general - point I was making was that these electronic media divert people away from real living mentors, and the lack of such contact can just as easily damage a player's development in the early stages as help it. It is very easy to take an exercise or technique away from a DVD and go about practicing it entirely incorrectly without supervision from a qualified teacher.

Your point that many drummers strive to be merely "flesh metronomes" is, I can only guess, a suggestion that there is more to drumming than merely keeping time. And on that point, I wholeheartedly agree. However, the time for that kind of thing is once certain fundamental abilities have been understood and mastered. Again, I was talking about the availability of technical knowledge to novices. Your successes notwithstanding, I stick to my original point: that the availability of so much technical information does not necessarily serve the general drumming population well. There are just as many cases (I see them everyday) where beginners become distracted from putting in the real work it takes to develop the tools to be a working professional player because they're too busy playing "gravity blasts" and working out how to play sextuplets grouped in 5s and 7s with their hands while playing in 15/8 with their feet. (Note: this last sentence does not refer to anyone in particular and is meant as a general metaphor for the pursuit of technical complexity out of the context of musical application...)
 
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Boomka said:
Thanks for the theory lesson, but there sure are 12th-notes. A twelfth-note is the same as an 8th-note triplet in 4/4 time. I.e. dividing a bar into 12 notes. In fact, you'll find Scottish Pipe Band drummers using "1/12 notes" and even "1/24 notes" as a description in some of their stuff. It's simply not common parlance. Though, I'd argue that it makes a lot more sense than an "8th note triplet" which is actually utter nonsense.
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Very interesting, I didn't know that.
 
You probably wouldn't find THAT many Scottish Pipe Band Drummers using 1/12th note to describe what they do. A 'quaver triplet' is a much more likely to be the terminology used, seeing as the whole 'divided' note phenomenon is an American one and we use a more Italicised system in the UK.
 
Dave_Major said:
I think i should maybe clear up what I meant.

I think that this isn't entirely true. There are loads of pro drummers who you could say have something wrong with their technique and could fix it. But technique is one part to drumming. What about groove, musicality, fills, balance, tempo, styles?


Dave
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This suggests that drumming is a destination. Get there and you're done! It's not. There is no relationship between being pro and technique. In fact I imagine that the more "pro" someone is, the more they work at getting better in all aspects of drumming.

Look at technique this way. People have always eaten. Have to to live, but techinque is like bringing out the knife, fork and spoon. With tools, there's a lot less mess.
 
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Boomka said:
Thanks for the theory lesson, but there sure are 12th-notes. A twelfth-note is the same as an 8th-note triplet in 4/4 time. I.e. dividing a bar into 12 notes. In fact, you'll find Scottish Pipe Band drummers using "1/12 notes" and even "1/24 notes" as a description in some of their stuff. It's simply not common parlance. Though, I'd argue that it makes a lot more sense than an "8th note triplet" which is actually utter nonsense. Anyway, the fact that it's obscure and confusing is EXACTLY why I chose it. Even if it weren't true, it's merely there to make a point.
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An old theory argument with many different opinions. Can or should counts be broken down individually or can they be grouped and brokent down? The "pureists" standard theory of "a count" does not allow for twelfth notes, but in octave and chord theory twelfth notes are necessary. Bach, who was also a mathamatician wrote some about this.
 
A "twelfth note" doesn't exist as a written note in western music notation. Of course, it DOES exist, in theory, in the form of a note taking one-twelfth of a total measure, explained in the easiest way as a compound subdivision (one beat in a 12/8 measure, being the most common--but even then, it's still considered an eighth note). But in theory, you could have 17th notes, 53rd notes, and 379826th notes as well--they're just not common practice.

Here we are in a thread about "perfect technique" discussing "perfect notation" of an imaginary note. Man, I love this forum!!!
 
donv said:
The "pureists" standard theory of "a count" does not allow for twelfth notes, but in octave and chord theory twelfth notes are necessary. Bach, who was also a mathamatician wrote some about this.
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Wha...huh? "In octave and chord theory twelfth notes are necessary?" What, exactly, is a twelfth note in "octave and chord theory?"
 
con struct said:
Wha...huh? "In octave and chord theory twelfth notes are necessary?" What, exactly, is a twelfth note in "octave and chord theory?"
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It's the interval of an octave plus a fifth...it's between an eleventh and a thirteenth, for you jazz guys.

It's about how harmonics and the overtone series line up...it's why chords are created the way they are and why some sound "consonant" while others sound "dissonant"...
 
caddywumpus said:
It's the interval of an octave plus a fifth...it's between an eleventh and a thirteenth, for you jazz guys.

It's about how harmonics and the overtone series line up...it's why chords are created the way they are and why some sound "consonant" while others sound "dissonant"...
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Well...sort of almost.
The twelfth degree in C is G, an octave above the fifth, but there's just no such thing as a twelfth chord. There's no such thing a a fifth chord either, which would be the same thing. I've never heard anyone refer to the twelfth, I mean ever. There's just no need.
Show a piano player "Cmaj13 add 12" and he'd say "What the hell is this supposed to mean?"
 
con struct said:
Well...sort of almost.
The twelfth degree in C is G, an octave above the fifth, but there's just no such thing as a twelfth chord. There's no such thing a a fifth chord either, which would be the same thing. I've never heard anyone refer to the twelfth, I mean ever. There's just no need.
Show a piano player "Cmaj13 add 12" and he'd say "What the hell is this supposed to mean?"
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True, but it's the theory of how chords are made according to the science of overtones, and it was Bach who came up with the term, so who's to argue? Jazz hadn't been invented yet, at least not until Beethoven!

BTW, I'm in TOTAL agreement with you...there is no "twelfth note", either in western rhythmic notation or in chord or interval notations...
 
con struct said:
Well...sort of almost.
The twelfth degree in C is G, an octave above the fifth, but there's just no such thing as a twelfth chord. There's no such thing a a fifth chord either, which would be the same thing. I've never heard anyone refer to the twelfth, I mean ever. There's just no need.
Show a piano player "Cmaj13 add 12" and he'd say "What the hell is this supposed to mean?"
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Look this up with Bach: Well Tempered Clavier

12ths are necessary to tune a piano. Has to do with tuning the 3 strings together that the hammer hits. Bach had this all figured out mathamatically with frequencies at a time when there was no way to measure frequency.
 
I don't think anyone can ever have too much technique.

But I'll admit there are many players who have incredible technique, and I'd gladly cut off my toe to have 1/4 of their technique, but musically, they bore me to tears, and I can't stand listening to them because it just sounds (to me) like they're reciting exercises out of a book when I hear them .

Anyhow, I think that's where the OP was trying to go.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
I don't think anyone can ever have too much technique.

But I'll admit there are many players who have incredible technique, and I'd gladly cut off my toe to have 1/4 of their technique, but musically, they bore me to tears, and I can't stand listening to them because it just sounds (to me) like they're reciting exercises out of a book when I hear them .

Anyhow, I think that's where the OP was trying to go.
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I agree. Technique is vital....but not at the expense of expression. If the former begins to overtake the latter, then there is no point continuing IMO.
 
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Great question Dave, and Boomka as usual, nails it.

Technique, quite simply is a means to an end, and sometimes when means becomes the end in itself, we lose that lovin' feeling and wonder where it went??!!

Thomas lang ran away with it. Kidding! ( not .. )

Having said that I am very grateful for this trend, as you call it, grateful to have the Jojo DVD, grateful to have access to lots more qualified teachers, pros and smart accomplished people to talk to on this forum, the great Terry. B who can transcribe anything I ask him to, youtube with the slowed-down vids, foot technique, hand technique, all the info thats out there, and lemme have it all!!!.

I didn't have a 10th of this growing up, didn't have teachers ( bless you, Sam Ulano for my 5 free lessons), and it was all just a lot of listening, borrowing tapes, and hanging around musicians, clubs, sitting in, jamming etc. Picking up what one could.

In contrast, there seems to be a degree of isolation I sense amongst a lot of cats today.

I see too many talented guys, just sitting around at home, soundcards hooked up to their comps making music in this very solitary realm. Occasionally some one comes over and and some rare musical togetherness happens... and maybe this mindset/existence encourages a degree of warped navel-gazing.


I dont know, I dont want to sound judgmental, but is technique just the stuff you learn on paper, and from exercises or is it also the ability to play the right thing at the right time, and from 2 points of view: your co-musicians and your listeners?

Where does one learn that, if not with 'living the music' to some extent?\

...
 
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dairyairman said:
if this is a trendy fad, then it's is a good one. you're right about a lot of people having bad technique. i did too until i started taking lessons. the jojo dvd helped me out as well.

but i don't actually know of anyone who is so caught up in the quest for improved technique that they forgot to play music. that kind of person is pretty rare, i would think.

what i do see is a lot of young kids caught up in the all consuming quest for double bass speed, to the point where they forget to play music. that is way more common.
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I was one of them but not anymore, although i aint a kid.

To answer the question i do believe that it probably is important to sit down and practice things like this but at the end of the day even if you have good or bad technique as long as you can make something sound good or musical or just keep time it doesn't really matter. I have heard people criticise Mike Portnoy's technique and we all know he is a technically fantastic drummer and musical. I don't think learning a perfect technique would do any difference for him as he is using what is comfortable and what works best for him.

As much as i practice, i tend to let things flow and try and get them to work themselves out, i'm a firm believer that when i play for long enough that things will start to eventually fall into place and develop out of necessity. My feel is improving tremendously but is not always accurate but i feel that if i keep going the accuracy will come at a later point.
 
Boomka said:
Can you say that the multiple-pedal independence stuff Thomas demonstrates is the sort of thing a novice drummer ought to be studying? How many gigs will that get you?
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Well, not novice but I think (and this is slightly off-topic) that actually to a certain degree independence stuff can be more usefull than full-time speed/technique practice since it gets your limbs going equally good and most of the time you are playing at the tempos you actually play in most of the musical situations you encounter, rather than trying to perfect that 270 bpm double stroke roll.

And your suggestion that what you do on gigs somehow correlates with what we practice is just silly. Do we get gigs by stretching or jogging? Of course not but they _can_ help you play those gigs you get easier. That's why I practice independence stuff. But I also agree that 12 years old beginner doesn't have to practice 5 over 11 before anything else, it's a waste of time. And even I don't practice independence all the time. It all depends on how much time you have in your day for practice.

Boomka said:
The other - general - point I was making was that these electronic media divert people away from real living mentors, and the lack of such contact can just as easily damage a player's development in the early stages as help it. It is very easy to take an exercise or technique away from a DVD and go about practicing it entirely incorrectly without supervision from a qualified teacher.
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That's absolutely true when we talk about posture and limb techniques. And a good teacher can really speed the development of the student. But I'm not quite sure if it's not at all possible to achieve it by yourself, less propable but definitely possible.

Boomka said:
Your point that many drummers strive to be merely "flesh metronomes" is, I can only guess, a suggestion that there is more to drumming than merely keeping time. And on that point, I wholeheartedly agree. However, the time for that kind of thing is once certain fundamental abilities have been understood and mastered. Again, I was talking about the availability of technical knowledge to novices. Your successes notwithstanding, I stick to my original point: that the availability of so much technical information does not necessarily serve the general drumming population well. There are just as many cases (I see them everyday) where beginners become distracted from putting in the real work it takes to develop the tools to be a working professional player because they're too busy playing "gravity blasts" and working out how to play sextuplets grouped in 5s and 7s with their hands while playing in 15/8 with their feet. (Note: this last sentence does not refer to anyone in particular and is meant as a general metaphor for the pursuit of technical complexity out of the context of musical application...)
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Yes I agree with you when speaking about novices. I have always had the perspective that I have musical visions and if I don't have the technique to play them then I practice the things that get me there. And it seems this is a never ending journey. Though gravity blast can be a good motivator to practice since it's actually used in many musical contexts. Your independence example is better since it's rarely used in a musical context.
 
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