What is the difference of 3/4 and 6/8?

Young drummers often come across stuff like that and go "sweet I don't need to learn stuff, I can just feel it!" something I wish I hadn't succumbed to in my youth!

I agree, feel is a loaded word. These days feel has come to mean, something akin to an emotional mental experience, when often times what is meant is analytic tactile touch or also musical style or interpretation. Certainly an emotional mental experience is one way to interpret music, but I for one don't care to here a bunch if grown ups cry like babies who didn't get their candy today.
 
Tony, this is going to look like I'm picking on you in particular here, but I'm really talking about this kind of comment in general.

Your comment is not really helpful.

Its the kind of thing written by someone who has no appetite or desire for music theory or a deeper understanding of the instrument. That is fine, you may be an awesome drummer with massive amounts of success playing simply on feel. But in a discussion where people are trying to help each other learn about an element of music theory its not very helpful.

There are no musicians who love and know music theory who don't also use feel and instinct to play in a band situation. none.

However there are hundreds of drummers who are scared of theory and retort with. "its all nonsense man, you just feel the music."

The best analogy I've hear for this is to treat music as a conversation. You can't have a conversation unless you know some vocabulary. You couldn't write a best selling novel if you only knew a handful of words. Drummers get further than other musicians without this because it is relatively easy to hit stuff in time without anyone challenging you to know more.

I used to be the kind of drummer who would have made that comment a few years ago, which is why it is now a big bugbear of mine. I wished I'd have challenged myself earlier.

"just feel the music" screams to me, "yeah that theory stuff is just too hard and too much effort, I tried it, but I didn't get it straight away so, whatever man I can still swing a band!"

Sorry Tony, not really aimed at you per se (just slightly, although you may have been jokingly saying what you said), i guess you caught me on a bad morning!

Tony knows all about charting and transcribing. If anything, that comment should be directed at me. I've never really used any written music in my drumming. I can read, but I don't use it. That doesn't mean this thread isn't interesting to me, it is.

How about this, Kirk?

Hey kids, if you want to take 10 years longer than it otherwise would have taken to learn how to play drums, then don't learn theory and don't take lesson. You might or might not give it up along the way, but if you can fake it until you're in your 40's, then you might be a halfway decent drummer someday. Or you could just be a prodigy like Aaron Spears. Good luck on that!

How's that?
 
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Tony, this is going to look like I'm picking on you in particular here, but I'm really talking about this kind of comment in general.

Your comment is not really helpful.

Its the kind of thing written by someone who has no appetite or desire for music theory or a deeper understanding of the instrument. That is fine, you may be an awesome drummer with massive amounts of success playing simply on feel. But in a discussion where people are trying to help each other learn about an element of music theory its not very helpful.

There are no musicians who love and know music theory who don't also use feel and instinct to play in a band situation. none.

However there are hundreds of drummers who are scared of theory and retort with. "its all nonsense man, you just feel the music."

The best analogy I've hear for this is to treat music as a conversation. You can't have a conversation unless you know some vocabulary. You couldn't write a best selling novel if you only knew a handful of words. Drummers get further than other musicians without this because it is relatively easy to hit stuff in time without anyone challenging you to know more.

I used to be the kind of drummer who would have made that comment a few years ago, which is why it is now a big bugbear of mine. I wished I'd have challenged myself earlier.

"just feel the music" screams to me, "yeah that theory stuff is just too hard and too much effort, I tried it, but I didn't get it straight away so, whatever man I can still swing a band!"

Sorry Tony, not really aimed at you per se (just slightly, although you may have been jokingly saying what you said), i guess you caught me on a bad morning!

I take no offense to this at all

and being that for the past 20 years I have made a fantastic living playing drums, producing music.... all of which includes constantly reading and writing charts

I hope you don't take offense ... but your post sounds pretentious and preachy

and I stand by my statement .... whether you know a tune is in 6/8 or 3/4 is not going to matter for one split second if you cannot make it feel right
and if it does feel right and you don't know if it is in 6/8 or 3/4 there is not one person who is going to care.

Zephyr doesn't know if his tune is in 6/8 or 3/4.... and he sounds great playing it.... you think his band mates care?..... you think the chicks and cats dancing at the gig care ?

sure he wants to learn .... and he will ... he is constantly asking questions about it and seeking info .... but when he is playing the tune it matters nil

I've been in recording studios and on stages my entire life ..... making my entire living .... and in the thousands of sessions, countless gigs, and hundreds of tours I have played on not ONE time has a time signature mattered .

80% of the time when I am handed a lead sheet at a record date there is not even a time signature on it .

not a whole lot a time signature is going to do for you if you sound like complete shit is it ?

nope..... just feel the music

hope your day gets better and you understand that we don't need preachers around here

most of us around here know how to read and full well understand theory ..... but music doesn't come off a page my friend.... it comes from your heart and your soul
 
Like I said, as I don't know Tony, it was less an attack on him, more an attack on those kind of comments generally.

Young drummers often come across stuff like that and go "sweet I don't need to learn stuff, I can just feel it!" something I wish I hadn't succumbed to in my youth!

Tony unfortunately felt my wrath there! sorry Tony, but I'm sure you hear where I'm coming from!

I feel where you are coming from for sure

I am an educator with a roster of 55 students and a waiting list as long

I have former students who I handed their first sticks to in some of the most prestigious music institutions in the world on scholarship

of course I understand the importance of theory .... as do my students

but they also know theory has nothing to do with PLAYING music
 
Tony knows all about charting and transcribing. If anything, that comment should be directed at me. I've never really used any written music in my drumming. I can read, but I don't use it. That doesn't mean this thread isn't interesting to me, it is.

How about this, Kirk?

Hey kids, if you want to take 10 years longer than it otherwise would have taken to learn how to play drums, then don't learn theory and don't take lesson. You might or might not give it up along the way, but if you can fake it until you're in your 40's, then you might be a halfway decent drummer someday. Or you could just be a prodigy like Aaron Spears. Good luck on that!

How's that?

What I was trying to get at here, is that this thread was a request at understanding some theory. A lot of great answers were provided and this stuff is pretty interesting. In my experience sometimes certain phrases by well respected drummers can cause some people to think, ah ok the theory stuff is good, but I don't need to worry about it too much.

Yeah perhaps I could have phrased that better, but I certainly wasn't aiming to offend anyone, simply trying to suggest the thread continued to focus on the original question.

I take no offense to this at all

and being that for the past 20 years I have made a fantastic living playing drums, producing music.... all of which includes constantly reading and writing charts

I hope you don't take offense ... but your post sounds pretentious and preachy

and I stand by my statement .... whether you know a tune is in 6/8 or 3/4 is not going to matter for one split second if you cannot make it feel right
and if it does feel right and you don't know if it is in 6/8 or 3/4 there is not one person who is going to care.

Zephyr doesn't know if his tune is in 6/8 or 3/4.... and he sounds great playing it.... you think his band mates care?..... you think the chicks and cats dancing at the gig care ?

sure he wants to learn .... and he will ... he is constantly asking questions about it and seeking info .... but when he is playing the tune it matters nil

I've been in recording studios and on stages my entire life ..... making my entire living .... and in the thousands of sessions, countless gigs, and hundreds of tours I have played on not ONE time has a time signature mattered .

80% of the time when I am handed a lead sheet at a record date there is not even a time signature on it .

not a whole lot a time signature is going to do for you if you sound like complete shit is it ?

nope..... just feel the music

hope your day gets better and you understand that we don't need preachers around here

most of us around here know how to read and full well understand theory ..... but music doesn't come off a page my friend.... it comes from your heart and your soul

Again, apologies Tony and I accept that the tone of my message sounded a little pretentious and preachy. I wasn't trying to be pretentious, but I suppose I was actually trying to be a little on the preachy side, or at least the 'don't do what I did, learn from my mistakes' route. I deeply regret how long it took me to become interest in music theory and if there is one piece of advice I could give to any young drummers it would be to make sure they take music theory on board.

I'm not bitter about it, but surely one of the benefits of humans is we learn from each others mistakes. I certainly took it too much to heart when I heard great drummers couldn't read music. Noone ever mentioned the 'but' to me.

Your post doesn't quite sound like you took no offense though! I mean you laid it on pretty thick there.

But I actually do agree with you here. Of course music comes from the heart and soul and making something feel great is what good drummers do.
 
If I play 16ths in 6/8 that would be 12 notes counted as 6?

Does this sound right? Or am I wrong?

It's the top measure that really matters when it comes down to it. Though having said that 6/8 is compound time so you divide the top by 3 to get the number of beats to the bar. So keeping it compound you just need to know how many 16th notes make up an 8th note.

6/8 = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 count
6/8 using 16th = 1 and 2 and 3 and, 4 and, 5 and, 6 and count

3/4 = 1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3, etc
 
Again, apologies Tony and I accept that the tone of my message sounded a little pretentious and preachy. I wasn't trying to be pretentious, but I suppose I was actually trying to be a little on the preachy side, or at least the 'don't do what I did, learn from my mistakes' route. I deeply regret how long it took me to become interest in music theory and if there is one piece of advice I could give to any young drummers it would be to make sure they take music theory on board.

I'm not bitter about it, but surely one of the benefits of humans is we learn from each others mistakes. I certainly took it too much to heart when I heard great drummers couldn't read music. Noone ever mentioned the 'but' to me.

Your post doesn't quite sound like you took no offense though! I mean you laid it on pretty thick there.

But I actually do agree with you here. Of course music comes from the heart and soul and making something feel great is what good drummers do.

everything you type is coming from a good place Kirk .... and is all absolutely valid

you passion is what jumps off the screen to me

I have a feeling you and I will engage in some healthy constructive discussions moving forward for you sound like a well rounded educated man who knows of what he speaks..... just the kind I like

.... and I indeed took zero offense .... I have been through entirely too much in life to be offended by something a stranger types on the internet

life is too short

I hope we can learn from each other in the future ...... after all ... that is why I am even a member here
 
You can write the same thing in 3/4 or 6/8

A time signature simply states how many beats per measure and what note value gets one beat.(not getting into artificial grouping here...)

Dont get lost in thinking a time signature defines the song or its feel...a time signature is an arbitrary way to describe an aspect of a song...like measuring a distance in meters vrs feet....its still the same distance regardless of the measurement standard...and how you walk that distance is not a function of how you measure it...things like accents, tempo and ties refine the common understanding of how the composer intends you to walk that distance.

A musical phrase can be written in infinite ways using standad notation...the point isnt how its written but what the writing describes.

There are common deviations from standard notation...such as interpreting a dotted eigth note as 1 and 3 of a triplet...but it is just that...a deviation from the true meaning of a common language...a sad mutation thta is not needed as a triplet can be noted accuratly as can a dotted eighth note...but isnt that the nature of language?...its meaning tends to drift over time.
 
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You can write the same thing in 3/4 or 6/8

A time signature simply states how many beats per measure and what note value gets one beat.(not getting into artificial grouping here...)

Dont get lost in thinking a time signature defines the song or its feel...a time signature is an arbitrary way to describe an aspect of a song...like measuring a distance in meters vrs feet....its still the same distance regardless of the measurement standard...and how you walk that distance is not a function of how you measure it...things like accents, tempo and ties refine the common understanding of how the composer intends you to walk that distance.

A musical phrase can be written in infinite ways using standad notation...the point isnt how its written but what the writing describes.

There are common deviations from standard notation...such as interpreting a dotted eigth note as 1 and 3 of a triplet...but it is just that...a deviation from the true meaning of a common language...a sad mutation thta is not needed as a triplet can be noted accuratly as can a dotted eighth note...but isnt that the nature of language?...its meaning tends to drift over time.

I agree wholeheartedly.
 
Larry asked me if I could come up with a popular song in 6/8, and I couldn't. But I remembered the Mongo Santamaria song "Afro Blue" as played by John Coltrane, and I think that song is a perfect example of 6/8.

Here's what it looks like, but this is the line the way Coltrane plays it, in F.



And here it is from the man himself with his own band. You can really get the 6/8 pulse from this performance, right from when the congas start playing. Listen to the cowbell lick during the conga solo. If that's not 6/8 I'll eat a cookie.
 
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With both of those examples I find it so much easier to count

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,

and not

1 + 2 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 3 +

I've often wondered if that messes up my ability to truly understand 16ths and 32nds?
 
Using a breathing analogy, 3/4 "breathes out" on one and breathes in on two and/or three. 6/8 breathes out on one and breathes in on four. 3/4 is stressed on the one, making each measure lopsided and asymmetrical. 6/8 is stressed on the one and the four (one having slightly more weight), making it feel balanced.
 
Tony, this is going to look like I'm picking on you in particular here, but I'm really talking about this kind of comment in general.

Your comment is not really helpful.

Its the kind of thing written by someone who has no appetite or desire for music theory or a deeper understanding of the instrument.

Just the opposite. Sounds to me like a man who's been around that block and arrived back at himself again.

Knowledge (theory) is not understanding. Deeper understanding can be when you realise that notation doesn't mean S*it and you still need to play something appropriate to what you're hearing and make it feel and sound good. That's the beginning, middle and end of it. The thing is, you need to have studied theory thoroughly and truly grasped its monumental limitations to arrive at that place.

Theory is a road map, not to be mistaken for the actual landscape or the journey itself.

As to the topic - time signatures are attempts to codify sound in visual form. Played music preceded written music.

3/4 is an attempt to codify a pulse of three beats divided primarily into duple subdivisions.

6/8 is an attempt to codify EITHER a pulse of 6 beats or, more commonly, a pulse of 2 beats divided into triple meter.

And the most effective way to demonstrate this to a student is always to play examples of both. That is, you go back to sound and feel to give the theory meaning.

One of the tunes I use to help my students understand this is America from West Side Story. Of course, there Bernstein wrote mostly in 6/8 with the "3" bars being hemiola in 6, but the effect is the same: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy6wo2wpT2k&feature=kp

That said, just to show the pliability of theory/time signatures, you could just as easily write the two first bars of the melody as a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 2/4 so that the accents in the first bar land on 1, the and of 2 and 4 and then on 1 and 2 of the second bar. Bar lines are partly to indicate where strong pulses should be felt (i.e. beat 1) but in another way they're quite arbitrary and in large part simply to divide the visual presentation of sound into even units so as to make it easier to digest, learn and rehearse. There was a time when music was written without bar lines.

(Aside, but germane: some of the swing stuff in WSS was originally written in 6/8 instead of in 4 with triplets. Makes it a trip to read if you're used to the usual presentation. The real trick is to stop reading and trying to think the time signature and hear it.)
 
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The difference is where the pulse is.

3/4 (waltz) has three pulses:
1 2 3

6/8 has two pulses:
1 + a 2 + a
Think 6/8 blues - 1 = kick, 2 = snare,
(kik and SD play Pulses)

6/8 is like 2/4 with triplets
1 trip let 2 trip let
 
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