Mike Mangini Rhythm Knowledge Practice Confusion

Jonathan Curtis

Jonathan Curtis

Silver Member
Warning: This post really requires a bit of familiarity with Mangini's Rhythm Knowledge

I seem to go through this from time to time. I'll get totally confused with the best way to practice.

I'm very interested in the biomechanical aspect of it. I've read Mangini's Rhythm Knowledge, which really appealed to my inner scientist, but since then I've struggled to practice confidently. For a while, I followed his advice and worked in 90 minute blocks for individual exercises, but was never confident I was "doing it right".

I'm not quite sure how Mike meant for that to be applied; for all his intelligence and drumming ability, the books aren't very well written, nor are they very pragmatic. For instance, say I'm practising Stick Control. Is he advocating working on 1 pattern in the 90-minute block method for 6 weeks, or per page? Same with let's say... John Riley comping exercises: Is he talking of spending this time mastering ONE exercise at a time, or am I looking at this too clinically?

Generally, I do 3 hours dedicated practice a day (all timed, planned metronome practice, not noodling), and tend not to work on any one thing for less than 20 minutes at a time. I also try and repeat that same exercise for the next few weeks. With some things though, I feel I should be applying Mangini's 90 minute/6 weeks rule. Would this only apply to fundamental technique such as rudiments and hand/foot combinations, or EVERYTHING one practises?

I'd be really interested in your thoughts on this, as, like many people, I want to take my drumming as far as I can and get the most out of every session.

Thanks
 
Sorry to bump a thread, but I'd really like some thoughts on this.

If I don't get any responses this time around, I'll leave it.
 
I'm also applying the Rhythm Knowledge method to my practicing, albeit only a few certain pages in the book.

The first one that I make sure is that I'm in the proper mood for practicing. If I'm in a sour mood, practicing won't work, because I will not be as patient then as I will be later. Granted, one thing that I do that helps influence a proper practicing mindset (and probably a little bit controversial to some) is, while I am using Tempo Advanced on my iTouch, I am also playing, in the background (also on the same iTouch) a specific subliminal message MP3 that relates to "improving music skills." If I put that file on loop, I could spend 3 hours on end practicing the "boring and mundane" exercises and not get tired, and more than anything, ENJOY it!

The other thing that I make HUGE use of is the practice grid examples on page 71(?), but I combined the two different types of charts into one, AND re-aligned the X and Y axis (rows and columns) so that you use the bottom row and left column to label things. The bottom row, I write exercises, and the left column, I write different tempi. Now, I am currently using this kind of a grid for practicing the "chop-builders," such as Stick Control, Accents and Rebounds (the follow-up to Stick Control), and also the couple of exercises off of the Secret Weapons DVD. And for all of these, I set my metronome to play 52 bars of 4/4 (2 bars for count-off). I do 50 repetitions per set, with the overall goal being 1000 measures of 4/4.

Now, what I HIGHLY recommend doing with this is two things: firstly, start the metronome at a VERY slow tempo (and make sure that tempo is in the grid too), and again, do NOT move to a faster tempo until you complete 1000 reps. The other is this: after one set, move on to a different thing and do one set of that. Doing this tends to alleviate the possibility of getting bored, which comes in handy if you tend to be ADD, like myself. Plus it will test your mind's ability to recall information, and get it used to remembering things easily. To give you an example of this, I may play Stick Control #1 with my hands (right hand on the ride bell, left hand cross-stick), and play a bossa/samba foot ostinato underneath, for one set at 60bpm (as 16th notes). After that repetiton, I do the same thing, but instead play a baiao foot ostinato underneath for another set at 60bpm. and them maybe the same thing, but as a swung jazz comping exercise (RF and LH plays #1 over standard jazz ride ostinato). And I repeat that cycle until it gets boring.


Now for me, why I do all of this is to be able to get as much done, with as much positive progress, at the fastest rate while not getting bored.

As for learning songs, I would do the same exact thing, but in this case, I use the Amazing Slow Downer application instead of a metronome, and instead of tempo markings, I use playback speed percentages (20%, 25%, 30%... 100%). For this, I would just spend a lot of time playing it half speed, then full speed, then as slow as you can bear to play it, and speed it up from there. It will help you learn how each song goes, on the first two, then when you really slow it down, that's where you put all of your repetitions of a song. The more repetitions the better, but as for how many, I would place a number based on how long you have to learn the song.

Okay, that is my VERY long-winded answer to this question. And while I will admit, I only actively apply those two principles in his book, a lot of other things written in there are common sense.

Also, my little disclaimer: this is all only based off of Volume I. I don't own Volume II yet (if I ever will). And also, I am truly, truly surprised no one else has posted here about this either.
 
From what I recall the concept was to play each individual exercise for 90 minutes. Mike's theory is that this is the quickest way to create a muscle memory pattern that your body will not forget.

If you have the patience, go for it. My favorite of Mike's concepts is the C+C Limb system done in 1 measure of 16ths at various tempos. I never took it much farther than that.
 
I studied with Mike for some time and he explained it to me as "recording a motion into your muscle memory".

The idea is to take a motion that you wish to improve. Say single stroke rolls with the hands for example.

You would practice any exercise that incorporated that motion for 90 minutes non stop.

One day could be groups of 11 played at 50 BPM for 90 mins. Or 30 minutes of sixteenths, 30 minutes of triplets and 30 minutes of quintuplets.

The exact exercise need not be the same every day or even within the same practice session. The common denominator is the motion of the single stroke roll.

You could do this with doubles, paradiddles, hands, feet...

He strongly recommends playing larger odd subdivisions such as 13 or 17 notes per beat because the concentration required to count such unfamiliar note groupings will serve to keep the tempo down and allow you to really do it right.

I would not recommend jumping from "regular" practice right into a 90 minute single stroke roll. Your forearms and hands might get blasted by the jump in workload.

Work up to 90 minutes over a reasonable period of time, say a few weeks to months.

Good luck
 
Jeff Almeyda said:
I studied with Mike for some time and he explained it to me as "recording a motion into your muscle memory".

The idea is to take a motion that you wish to improve. Say single stroke rolls with the hands for example.

You would practice any exercise that incorporated that motion for 90 minutes non stop.

One day could be groups of 11 played at 50 BPM for 90 mins. Or 30 minutes of sixteenths, 30 minutes of triplets and 30 minutes of quintuplets.

The exact exercise need not be the same every day or even within the same practice session. The common denominator is the motion of the single stroke roll.

You could do this with doubles, paradiddles, hands, feet...

He strongly recommends playing larger odd subdivisions such as 13 or 17 notes per beat because the concentration required to count such unfamiliar note groupings will serve to keep the tempo down and allow you to really do it right.

I would not recommend jumping from "regular" practice right into a 90 minute single stroke roll. Your forearms and hands might get blasted by the jump in workload.

Work up to 90 minutes over a reasonable period of time, say a few weeks to months.

Good luck
Click to expand...

I think this was the god-send I was looking for... and the motivation to order Volume 2. Thanks Jeff!
 
Eyamsiyu said:
Granted, one thing that I do that helps influence a proper practicing mindset (and probably a little bit controversial to some) is, while I am using Tempo Advanced on my iTouch, I am also playing, in the background (also on the same iTouch) a specific subliminal message MP3 that relates to "improving music skills." If I put that file on loop, I could spend 3 hours on end practicing the "boring and mundane" exercises and not get tired, and more than anything, ENJOY it!
Click to expand...

I'm really curious to know what message the mp3 is playing? Checked out a few subliminal message albums just now, which one do you have?

I am constantly finding new ways of making my practice time more efficient, and trying to cut the work in half. I believe there is a science behind everything, and it's just a matter of finding it out so we can do things smarter.
 
Eyamsiyu said:
I'm also applying the Rhythm Knowledge method to my practicing, albeit only a few certain pages in the book.

The first one that I make sure is that I'm in the proper mood for practicing. If I'm in a sour mood, practicing won't work, because I will not be as patient then as I will be later. Granted, one thing that I do that helps influence a proper practicing mindset (and probably a little bit controversial to some) is, while I am using Tempo Advanced on my iTouch, I am also playing, in the background (also on the same iTouch) a specific subliminal message MP3 that relates to "improving music skills." If I put that file on loop, I could spend 3 hours on end practicing the "boring and mundane" exercises and not get tired, and more than anything, ENJOY it!

The other thing that I make HUGE use of is the practice grid examples on page 71(?), but I combined the two different types of charts into one, AND re-aligned the X and Y axis (rows and columns) so that you use the bottom row and left column to label things. The bottom row, I write exercises, and the left column, I write different tempi. Now, I am currently using this kind of a grid for practicing the "chop-builders," such as Stick Control, Accents and Rebounds (the follow-up to Stick Control), and also the couple of exercises off of the Secret Weapons DVD. And for all of these, I set my metronome to play 52 bars of 4/4 (2 bars for count-off). I do 50 repetitions per set, with the overall goal being 1000 measures of 4/4.

Now, what I HIGHLY recommend doing with this is two things: firstly, start the metronome at a VERY slow tempo (and make sure that tempo is in the grid too), and again, do NOT move to a faster tempo until you complete 1000 reps. The other is this: after one set, move on to a different thing and do one set of that. Doing this tends to alleviate the possibility of getting bored, which comes in handy if you tend to be ADD, like myself. Plus it will test your mind's ability to recall information, and get it used to remembering things easily. To give you an example of this, I may play Stick Control #1 with my hands (right hand on the ride bell, left hand cross-stick), and play a bossa/samba foot ostinato underneath, for one set at 60bpm (as 16th notes). After that repetiton, I do the same thing, but instead play a baiao foot ostinato underneath for another set at 60bpm. and them maybe the same thing, but as a swung jazz comping exercise (RF and LH plays #1 over standard jazz ride ostinato). And I repeat that cycle until it gets boring.


Now for me, why I do all of this is to be able to get as much done, with as much positive progress, at the fastest rate while not getting bored.

As for learning songs, I would do the same exact thing, but in this case, I use the Amazing Slow Downer application instead of a metronome, and instead of tempo markings, I use playback speed percentages (20%, 25%, 30%... 100%). For this, I would just spend a lot of time playing it half speed, then full speed, then as slow as you can bear to play it, and speed it up from there. It will help you learn how each song goes, on the first two, then when you really slow it down, that's where you put all of your repetitions of a song. The more repetitions the better, but as for how many, I would place a number based on how long you have to learn the song.

Okay, that is my VERY long-winded answer to this question. And while I will admit, I only actively apply those two principles in his book, a lot of other things written in there are common sense.

Also, my little disclaimer: this is all only based off of Volume I. I don't own Volume II yet (if I ever will). And also, I am truly, truly surprised no one else has posted here about this either.
Click to expand...

Me again... Eyamsiyu, I found your posting quite interesting! What led you to come up with this method of practicing/what influenced you?
 
@ Jeff Almeyda and Eyamsiyu

Thank you very much! Very informative, and just what I was looking for. I will certainly try and incorporate those methods into my own practice.
 
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