How do I swing harder?

Benfordrum

Senior Member
Guys.. I feel like I can swing and go out and be all energy filled like elvin and stuff...
But I want to come in and learn how to make people DANCE with just my ride cymbal. I mean like the way Blakey makes you groove on soul station. Or billy Higgins on eastern rebellion/dexter records. ?

And also what are some good billy Higgins records
 
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Re: How do I swing harder???

Usually it takes a whole band to make people dance, but you can help them along by not shying away from repetition, by maintaining a strong quarter note pulse, with a strong 2 and 4, and a defined 1 and 3; also comping/punctuating with a lot of &'s of 2 and/or 4, and probably using the bass drum to keep time would help.

My own favorite records with Billy Higgins are:
Don Cherry -- Art Deco (and Brown Rice, but that's probably not what you're looking for)
Pat Metheny -- Rejoicing
Joshua Readman -- Wish
Dexter Gordon -- Go
Ornette Coleman -- Change of the Century
 
Re: How do I swing harder???

You said it right there. It's all about the pulse. Like a heartbeat. Things aren't even in sound, volume or time. Swing is the difference between one side of the beat being a tease and the other side hitting you right where you live.
 
Re: How do I swing harder???

Think quarter note. A steady, grooving quarter note. Leave out the eighth note triplets and the dotted sixteenths. Just a big, solid grooving quarter note, that's the thing. It's the basis for everything.
 
When i was in High School my band teacher gave me an exercise. He told me to get a swing feel using only quarter notes on the ride with a metronome. To this day it's one of the hardest exercises i do. It's all about micro-dynamics. changes in volume that are so slight as to be imperceptible as a change in volume but pronounced enough to still push the groove along. Quite difficult but once you can do that when you add the triplet rhythms back in (swung 8ths) your swing will be much deeper and will start causing involuntary movement in your audience which is the first step towards getting them up and dancing.
 
Re: How do I swing harder???

Think quarter note. A steady, grooving quarter note. Leave out the eighth note triplets and the dotted sixteenths. Just a big, solid grooving quarter note, that's the thing. It's the basis for everything.

+1 this

Then go listen to Brian and Christian (especially under the piano solo) ... better than anything you'll learn in school ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ2UomKctPs&list=RD1ICJUFOJa2g

best,
radman
 
Re: How do I swing harder???

Think quarter note. A steady, grooving quarter note. Leave out the eighth note triplets and the dotted sixteenths. Just a big, solid grooving quarter note, that's the thing. It's the basis for everything.

hammer meet nail head ^^^

....and I feel learning to feather properly under that quarter note can really make it swing hard
 
i would expand that idea of attending to the quarter note by saying "find that triplet feel that leads to the quarter note pulse".

i think of that triplet feel as gathering up the left footed and dropping them squarely on the beat...kinda like funneling everyones perception to the place in the song where their patootie cant help but bop!

...but you cant exchange one feel for the other in swing...imho...


...but what do i know....im no swing drummer....
 
Someone decades ago said "you can't make it swing or force it to swing, you have to let
it swing". There is a lot of truth to that.
 
Apart from what's been mentioned re the 1/4 note and triplet feel.. a few things off the top of my head;
Keep it snappy.. Don't just 'play the notes'. Swing the sticks.. Think arcs! Watch the dynamics.. Is your ride pattern punchy enough? Sometimes use a bit of fingers to squeeze out the shuffle.. Making it punchier.. What about the feel on the ride; are you playing a loose or a tight shuffle pattern? Basically - get into it! Find an example video of a hard swinging drummer and try to replicate what they're doing. Good luck!
 
Re: How do I swing harder???

Think quarter note. A steady, grooving quarter note. Leave out the eighth note triplets and the dotted sixteenths. Just a big, solid grooving quarter note, that's the thing. It's the basis for everything.

This /\ and what helps me is, I try to lose the drumming in the music, If that makes sense. Just get into the swing of the music and dont think too much about playing it.
 
Thank you guys! I think i swing but i just want to have that driving force.. kinda like louis hayes or something.

technique wise how can i develop emphasizing the quarter notes and making the little skip note less of a force? quarter notes swing harder haha
 
Thank you guys! I think i swing but i just want to have that driving force.. kinda like louis hayes or something.

technique wise how can i develop emphasizing the quarter notes and making the little skip note less of a force? quarter notes swing harder haha

I would suggest spending a portion of your practice time (say, 5-10 minutes a day) practicing the jazz ride pattern at a slow tempo (you can add the hi-hat on 2 and 4 and a very light bass drum on all 4's if you want), between MM 40-60. Emphasize the quarter note pulse, and play the skip note relatively lightly, playing it by while lifting the stick to make the next quarter note. Stop the stick (without tension) around an inch above the cymbal on the quarter notes.

In my opinion, Jim Blackley's book Essence of Jazz Drumming has some of the best exercises focusing on ride cymbal articulation, so I'd recommend checking that out if you can (it's a little spendy, but you might find it worth the investment). The time I've spent working out of that book has been very beneficial for my timekeeping, I think.
 
..... In my opinion, Jim Blackley's book Essence of Jazz Drumming has some of the best exercises focusing on ride cymbal articulation, so I'd recommend checking that out if you can (it's a little spendy, but you might find it worth the investment). The time I've spent working out of that book has been very beneficial for my timekeeping, I think.

As I've been monitoring this thread I was wondering if this book would ultimately get brought up and recommended. Since I've done so on various other threads, I was hoping someone else would.

This book has been transformational to me. This is not to discount the amazing library of John Riley which is critical for in-depth study by anyone who wants to gain the insights, musical knowledge and coordination for jazz.

The Blackley book is a different animal altogether and should be an "addition to" not "instead of" the Riley material.
 
Thank you guys! I think i swing but i just want to have that driving force.. kinda like louis hayes or something.

technique wise how can i develop emphasizing the quarter notes and making the little skip note less of a force? quarter notes swing harder haha

As you're playing it, count it out loud. Vocally emphasize the quarter note; "SPANG-a-lang", "WALK the dog" , "2 &3...", etc. or however you want to count it.

If you can't say it, you can't play it.
 
Thank you guys! I think i swing but i just want to have that driving force.. kinda like louis hayes or something.

technique wise how can i develop emphasizing the quarter notes and making the little skip note less of a force? quarter notes swing harder haha


Yeah! Louis Hayes is a huge inspiration for me when it comes to piano trio drumming.
 
I would suggest spending a portion of your practice time (say, 5-10 minutes a day) practicing the jazz ride pattern at a slow tempo (you can add the hi-hat on 2 and 4 and a very light bass drum on all 4's if you want), between MM 40-60. Emphasize the quarter note pulse, and play the skip note relatively lightly, playing it by while lifting the stick to make the next quarter note. Stop the stick (without tension) around an inch above the cymbal on the quarter notes.

In my opinion, Jim Blackley's book Essence of Jazz Drumming has some of the best exercises focusing on ride cymbal articulation, so I'd recommend checking that out if you can (it's a little spendy, but you might find it worth the investment). The time I've spent working out of that book has been very beneficial for my timekeeping, I think.

As I've been monitoring this thread I was wondering if this book would ultimately get brought up and recommended. Since I've done so on various other threads, I was hoping someone else would.

This book has been transformational to me. This is not to discount the amazing library of John Riley which is critical for in-depth study by anyone who wants to gain the insights, musical knowledge and coordination for jazz.

The Blackley book is a different animal altogether and should be an "addition to" not "instead of" the Riley material.

Agreed on all the above. But, I'd say that swinging articulation is key for more than just the ride cymbal. I don't think eddie meant to say that it was, just clarifying to anyone reading.

One of the things I see the most from students and people new to jazz drumming is stiff articulation of nearly every phrase they play whether it be basic time playing on the ride, comping on the SD/BD or solo phrasing. I think the sooner you get into thinking about it and practicing the physical motions required to do it, the better.

Jim's book goes a long way to helping one understand swing articulation but doesn't go into the physical execution for obvious reasons. But, forgetting technique, the most important resource to research is the entire discography of jazz. I think you need to start in the 20s and 30s and work your way forward in time. Whatever you do, don't dive in with modern jazz or even bop. There's just so much going on. Stick to early recordings and/or big band recordings from the 30s, 40s and 50s where the rhythm sections are there to generate a feeling more than be full members of an interactive conversation. If you haven't checked out Gene Krupa with Benny Goodman, you have no business trying to penetrate more modern playing. You can do far worse than to sit down and listen to the entire Count Basie catalogue or Frank Sinatra's swing years with Irv Cottler smacking out backbeats with authority.

Listen to the drummers. But don't just listen to the drummers. We're too drum-centric. Listen to the horn players, piano players and the vocalists, too. Go through an entire album just zeroing on the double bass. That's where you'll learn to articulate - by imitating the way the human voice, wind instruments and the bass play swung figures and trying your level best to express that via the drums. I consciously try to pick up on the way my double bassist phrases their skip notes and put mine in a complimentary (if not the same) place. Listen to how the piano players phrased their offbeat notes and put your skip notes in the same place.

Learn the melodies. If you don't know the heads to the standards, you won't ever swing. Learn to sing the melodies in the correct style, then try to play them on the drums. Start with playing them on one surface (RC or SD, for instance) and then move to trying to play them on the drums. A classic melody like "Sunny Side of the Street" played by - say - Louis Armstrong has a wealth of information in it about how to phrase and articulate.

Sure, you won't always be soloing or playing figures in that way, but I think this exercise will go a long way to helping a student learn to generate the proper rhythmic undercurrent on the drums to support what's going on out front. Because, in the end, it's about what's going on out front (another way of saying "play for the song!") that matters.

Simply put, Step 1 is Imitate. Imitate. Imitate.
 
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