Custom Built Worth it?

P

plangentmusic

Guest
I'm going to keep it simple. And put it in perspective.

I've done the "custom built" thing and the "boutique" thing on two instruments. Drums and bass. And the outcome was always the same.

Here's my conclusion...

#1: First off "customized" is a crap shoot. You can put all the elements you want together but the sum total doesn't equal the parts. You can copy the best instrument you know and it will not necessarily translate.

#2: Exotic woods and such don't mean a damn thing in regard to sound.

#3: "Attention to detail" is a snob appeal sales pitch. A well made instrument is made as well as it can be made. They're drums, not rocket ships. There's only so much expertise in their design.

#4: Most "innovations in design fall by the wayside and just sound dated.

After owning dozens of snare drums, I now use a 5" supra-phonic -- the first one I started with. It always works.

After owning dozens of basses, my main one is a Fender Jazz. It always works.

Remember -- all the great recordings were done, for the most part on stock instruments. What was good enough for the greats is good enough for you and me.

Don't get caught up in option anxiety or analysis paralysis. The answer isn't in owning some elusive perfect instrument. It's in playing better.

They're drums. Just hit the damn things. If you can't make that sound good, practice more!

At least that's how I see it.
 
And here we have, once again, an inflamatory topic rised by plangentmusic. Not suprised.
 
I'm too busy creating innovations that will "fall by the wayside" to respond in detail. I responded to some similar points you made in an earlier thread, but didn't get anything of substance back.

There's a world of difference between someone piecing together features because they have the opportunity to, & someone who really knows what they're doing, crafting an instrument where every element is designed & tested to achieve a specific goal. You're correct in one observation, that an instrument should be greater than the sum of it's parts.

You're a talented musician, you have your POV, let's just leave it at that :)
 
I'm going to keep it simple. And put it in perspective.

I've done the "custom built" thing and the "boutique" thing on two instruments. Drums and bass. And the outcome was always the same.

Here's my conclusion...

#1: First off "customized" is a crap shoot. You can put all the elements you want together but the sum total doesn't equal the parts. You can copy the best instrument you know and it will not necessarily translate.

#2: Exotic woods and such don't mean a damn thing in regard to sound.

#3: "Attention to detail" is a snob appeal sales pitch. A well made instrument is made as well as it can be made. They're drums, not rocket ships. There's only so much expertise in their design.

#4: Most "innovations in design fall by the wayside and just sound dated.

After owning dozens of snare drums, I now use a 5" supra-phonic -- the first one I started with. It always works.

After owning dozens of basses, my main one is a Fender Jazz. It always works.

Remember -- all the great recordings were done, for the most part on stock instruments. What was good enough for the greats is good enough for you and me.

Don't get caught up in option anxiety or analysis paralysis. The answer isn't in owning some elusive perfect instrument. It's in playing better.

They're drums. Just hit the damn things. If you can't make that sound good, practice more!

At least that's how I see it.

There is quite a bit of truth in what you are saying, if one just considers how the drums will sound. CB700s can be made to sound nearly as good as DWs with good heads and careful tuning as there is not a whole lot of difference between them.

But people look at more than sound, although you may think that is silly. They like unusual wraps, paint jobs, sizes, shiny things and a badge with some history behind. To some people, that doesn't make a lick of sense but to others, these esthetic issues greatly add to the pleasure of owning and playing drums.

I'd go truly custom and get something other than plywood construction. Beautiful stave drums can be had for even less than a high-end mass produced set. If you play what everyone else plays, you will sound like everyone else sounds.
 
And here we have, once again, an inflamatory topic rised by plangentmusic. Not suprised.



It sounds like the only thing inflamatory is the fact that you're trying to make it so. Perhaps you should stop.









................................
 
There is quite a bit of truth in what you are saying, if one just considers how the drums will sound. CB700s can be made to sound nearly as good as DWs with good heads and careful tuning as there is not a whole lot of difference between them.

But people look at more than sound, although you may think that is silly. They like unusual wraps, paint jobs, sizes, shiny things and a badge with some history behind. To some people, that doesn't make a lick of sense but to others, these esthetic issues greatly add to the pleasure of owning and playing drums.

I'd go truly custom and get something other than plywood construction. Beautiful stave drums can be had for even less than a high-end mass produced set. If you play what everyone else plays, you will sound like everyone else sounds.

Hey, if someone wants a pink guitar with neon pinwheels, that's fine with me. I was referring to trying to find the "ultimate instrument" in regard to making better music.
 
I like the custom route. Just imagine if that wasn't available as an option. I'll wait.


Yea, I don't like it either.

Be careful what you wish for.

In the end, I agree that drums are drums, and it's really about the playing of the drums. But you can't blame someone for trying to get a better sound, you tried it. At least there are options other than the majors. It's actually a whole counterculture in a way, the custom drum builders. I'm glad they're here. Myself I get a lot of pleasure out of a custom made instrument. Anything that gets us away from dealing with huge corporations is alright by me.
 
I was referring to trying to find the "ultimate instrument" in regard to making better music.

But if everyone thought that way we'd never have crawled out of the jungle mate. The acoustic guitar is a perfect instrument......until someone decided to put a pick up on the thing and amp it up. Look at the different possibilities that opened up for making "better" music. Likewise with drums, is someone hadn't decided to customise a chinese tom by putting tension rods on it, we'd never have tunable drums.

I have no problems with drum makers experimenting with what's possible. To try and break the mold and push the innovation into unexplored territory. It may pay off or it may not, but no-one knows until they have a crack at it. And I have even less of a problem with someone else paying for it, if they believe it's more viable or beneficial to them musically.
 
It sounds like the only thing inflamatory is the fact that you're trying to make it so. Perhaps you should stop.

Nothing inflamatory about my post - merely an observation. I know others have pointed this out before. I accept that this is your opinion but it could be delivered in a less provocative way - case in point:

"I'm going to keep it simple. And put it in perspective."

Hmm.
 
There's a place and purpose for every drum company. You can contact the drummaker directly with a custom company. Some people would love to build their own drums and don't have the talent to do so, but would like to be part of the building process. What better option than the custom company. Yes that option can be way pricier but if you can afford to do so, why not? Competition is good. Always. Same can be said for cymabls too I guess. If that was the case, we'd all still be playing Zildjians. They are great and served their purpose, and yes most classic hits were played on Ludwigs, Slingerlands, Rogers and Zildjians, but that was then and this is now. I still love all the old stuff but am glad there are companies like Guru around.

I have a bit of an issue with Ludwig Legacy Classics. It was their "standard" and affordable drum back in the 1960s now it's wildly expensive and "custom", etc., etc. Why? I'm Ludwig fan for life but this irks me. :)
 
I've seen custom/boutique drums that sound and look beautiful; and I have seen some that did not.

I've also seen some that were affordable and some that were outrageously expensive for what they were.

My take on custom drums is that if you get some that you like and will keep for a lifetime, then all is good. But, if you ever want to unload the custom kit, your resale value will be pennies on the dollar in most cases.

I know it's everyone's intention that if they order a custom built kit it will be"the last drum kit i'll ever need or want". Rarely does that hold true.
 
It's funny, I was having a similar discussion regarding small companies and big marketers. People tend to think smaller companies help the "regular folk" and big companies make the billionaire richer...but it isn't that simple.

Even a ma and pa store rent from the big real estate company and buy inventory from the big manufacturers. And even the big chain companies employ "regular folks" ...so it's not as different as one may think.

I have nothing against instrument builders doing what they love -- but that doesn't mean I have to support it. But like I said, if you think the $1000 snare drum is worth it and you enjoy it, then it is indeed worth it. But the difference is personal, not universal. And if you go buy something realized that, I think you'd be better off. Many people wind up spending a fortune, just to be dissatisfied.

As for the comparison to the innovations over the years, that's a completely different subject. If someone made a better drum or a better guitar, I'd use it. My point is -- in the last half century or so, no one really has. DIfferent -- but not any better.

This isn't intended to tell people what to do -- just to show what they make think they have to do may not be necessary.

Also -- good point from boomer about resale value. Customized does not translate well on the open market.

And good point from larry -- Ludwig capitalizing on the vintage craze to sell standard stuff at a premium price. Fender does that also with their "re-issue" series. But if you look at the cost of living, it probably isn't that much more than what they were originally worth.
 
They're drums. Just hit the damn things. If you can't make that sound good, practice more!

... and that, by definition is the bottom line, the drummer makes the sound, no doubt about it, Steve Gadd can make a piece of cardboard box sounds good, but the drums are playing an important role, if not, we'll be all playing entry level kit.

As far as all the major manufacturer's lines nowadays, I would say I'm not convinced that their drums will provide something significantly better or different than my beloved top the line maple kit I purchased some 25 years ago, the very reason why I didn't buy a new kit in the first place.

I would agree that the majority of people drives mainstream cars, like Toyota, Audi, or Ford, but some people prefer to drive a Rolls-Royce or a Lamborghini, they both serve the same purpose, to move from A to B, but to say they're the same, in terms of material to build them and the way they perform, is not accurate, they're a bit more "special".

The vast majority of leading manufacturer's offer plywood shell construction, in a variety of style and sizes, but such company as Guru drums, since you going to keep it simple, are offering different constructions, such as stave or steam bent drums, with an array of specific optional requirements from their customers, these designs sound different than plywood construction, therefore, "boutique" or "custom build" can genuilely be the source to make "the ultimate instrument", providing you know what you want in the first place.

The answer isn't in owning some elusive perfect instrument. It's in playing better.

I agree, but while Steve Gadd sounds good on a cardboard box, he certainely sounds better on his yammies, the better the instrument, the better the player.
 
There's so many subjects wrapped up in this thread already, that it's difficult to work through them all. It would be good to start with defining custom. To me, custom is anything that's personalised, yet here, it's being used to describe anything that isn't made by a big manufacturer.

Many people wind up spending a fortune, just to be dissatisfied.
Correct, & no surprises there. 1st off, there's good & bad in the minor brand & custom shop world, just as there is amongst volume makers.

2nd, many of those disappointed are so because they've approached the build like a kid in a candy store. In many cases, the builder either doesn't have the knowledge to advise, or chooses not to because he's/she's just happy to take the customer's money. I've lost count of the number of builds we've turned down on the basis we know the end result won't be sonically pleasing.

difference is personal, not universal.
Difference will always be personal. There's no such thing as universally better when applied to the choice of an instrument.

DIfferent -- but not any better.
& here's the heart of the matter. Different is one man's better, & another man's worse. It's only better for you, if the differences suit you. If the area of improvement is of no use to you, then it's superfluous, & you don't get the value in it. For example, we could make a drum shell out of 2" thick balsa. It would have close to zero shell resonance, & the drum would have almost no fundamental tone. For me personally, that would be a crap drum, but for the guy who wants something low volume & very punchy for near field recording control, it may be a revelation. That guy would regard that as better, better for him.

If someone made a better drum or a better guitar, I'd use it. My point is -- in the last half century or so, no one really has.
The implication here is that, there's been very little worthwhile improvement in the last 50 years. Maybe not a single game changing event, but there's been plenty of gradual improvement. Hardware's an obvious one, shell manufacturing techniques is another that's brought real world benefits, especially in the area of offering consistent quality at lower cost.
 
I would agree that the majority of people drives mainstream cars, like Toyota, Audi, or Ford, but some people prefer to drive a Rolls-Royce or a Lamborghini, they both serve the same purpose, to move from A to B, but to say they're the same, in terms of material to build them and the way they perform, is not accurate, they're a bit more "special".

A snare drum isn't as complex as a car.
 
There's so many subjects wrapped up in this thread already, that it's difficult to work through them all. It would be good to start with defining custom. To me, custom is anything that's personalised, yet here, it's being used to describe anything that isn't made by a big manufacturer.

Correct, & no surprises there. 1st off, there's good & bad in the minor brand & custom shop world, just as there is amongst volume makers.

2nd, many of those disappointed are so because they've approached the build like a kid in a candy store. In many cases, the builder either doesn't have the knowledge to advise, or chooses not to because he's/she's just happy to take the customer's money. I've lost count of the number of builds we've turned down on the basis we know the end result won't be sonically pleasing.

Difference will always be personal. There's no such thing as universally better when applied to the choice of an instrument.

& here's the heart of the matter. Different is one man's better, & another man's worse. It's only better for you, if the differences suit you. If the area of improvement is of no use to you, then it's superfluous, & you don't get the value in it. For example, we could make a drum shell out of 2" thick balsa. It would have close to zero shell resonance, & the drum would have almost no fundamental tone. For me personally, that would be a crap drum, but for the guy who wants something low volume & very punchy for near field recording control, it may be a revelation. That guy would regard that as better, better for him.

The implication here is that, there's been very little worthwhile improvement in the last 50 years. Maybe not a single game changing event, but there's been plenty of gradual improvement. Hardware's an obvious one, shell manufacturing techniques is another that's brought real world benefits, especially in the area of offering consistent quality at lower cost.


Agree with all points.
 
+1 on what Mad About Drums said.

Here's an example of some custom guitars built to my specifications, made a few years ago. For my customs no. 1 and no. 2 it took me 4 hours discussing the basic features and lots of details on-site at my huthier, plus a correspondence of some 200 e-mails _after_ that meeting, plus several times dropping by and approving various build stages, selecting the _exact_ fretboards, front and back veneers, necks and bodies, mixing the stain (!!) to my exact liking (on that specific day - taste can change) and, where applicable, being present when some bursts were sprayed on.

Was all that fuzz worth it? In the end... yes. Why? Because when I grab one of those babies there's always that "hell those are so hot, and I like everything about them" feel. I had good guitars before but there were details which I didn't like. Many of those are cosmetics, but some are sonic differences, too. A picky selection of wood which both looks good and sound good can make a difference! In the end those vibrato bridge guitars sound noticeably better than decent non-vibrato mass produced (or "limited") guitars, and vibrato systems usually reduce the sound/sustain you can get otherwise by some 10%. Reminds me of GURU drums having less depth/size but providing the same powerful tone than drums larger in size.

As MAD said, you should know what you're after. Meaning that many are fine buying "standard"/mass production gear and even don't want to crack their brain which options to choose between. To me having countless options (or one's imagination being the limit) was pure heaven. But custom projects are always a challenge as you have to make up your mind on the specific things you (don't) want to have.

Once you go custom you'll never want to go back! So don't even try or you'll get hooked ;-)
 
I think that “custom” covers an extremely wide range.

Guru I find intriguing; Mydentity, not so much.
 
+1 on what Mad About Drums said.

Here's an example of some custom guitars built to my specifications, made a few years ago. For my customs no. 1 and no. 2 it took me 4 hours discussing the basic features and lots of details on-site at my huthier, plus a correspondence of some 200 e-mails _after_ that meeting, plus several times dropping by and approving various build stages, selecting the _exact_ fretboards, front and back veneers, necks and bodies, mixing the stain (!!) to my exact liking (on that specific day - taste can change) and, where applicable, being present when some bursts were sprayed on.

Was all that fuzz worth it? In the end... yes. Why? Because when I grab one of those babies there's always that "hell those are so hot, and I like everything about them" feel. I had good guitars before but there were details which I didn't like. Many of those are cosmetics, but some are sonic differences, too. A picky selection of wood which both looks good and sound good can make a difference! In the end those vibrato bridge guitars sound noticeably better than decent non-vibrato mass produced (or "limited") guitars, and vibrato systems usually reduce the sound/sustain you can get otherwise by some 10%. Reminds me of GURU drums having less depth/size but providing the same powerful tone than drums larger in size.

As MAD said, you should know what you're after. Meaning that many are fine buying "standard"/mass production gear and even don't want to crack their brain which options to choose between. To me having countless options (or one's imagination being the limit) was pure heaven. But custom projects are always a challenge as you have to make up your mind on the specific things you (don't) want to have.

Once you go custom you'll never want to go back! So don't even try or you'll get hooked ;-)

I think it's great that you found what you want, but your last statement is certainly untrue for me and many others. Among guitarists and bassists I see more of a return to basic instruments. I had a custom made snare drum that just didn't sing. Meanwhile another just like it was killer. Go figure. I had a Fodera bass that felt great but just didn't sound good in the mix either live or on recordings. My $200 Squier sounded better. So again -- it's a personal thing. I'm not saying everyone should agree with me, but at the same time to suggest that dismissal of custom built is just out of unawareness is just not true.
 
Back
Top