Pecking order

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
I wanted to gather consensus opinion here...this is aimed at anyone in a band. Do you find that there is a pecking order? I definitely do, and drummers are at the bottom. I freely accept this, have no animosity towards it, but do recognize it. Somebody has to be at the top and somebody has to be at the bottom, I suppose.

The open mic blues jam I am part of every week...there is this new kid there, he's like 16 YO, very green, a drummer....He has taken it upon himself to email the leader of the band (an extremely accomplished no BS musician) with kinda dumb drummer questions (in your opinion, would you say the drummer and the bass player are the engine of the band, and many other questions of a analogous nature). Like at least 6 emails with multiple ambiguous questions, many the same question but phrased differently...

Now I know the guitarist well enough and he definitely practices the pecking order. I'm pretty sure that in his mind, this kid was "stepping outside" his pecking order by "bothering" him with questions that should be handled between drummers or alone. The leader emailed me apprising of the situation, he wants this kid to give the emails a rest. So I emailed this kid. One of his questions are what makes a good drummer. I told him if he wants to get on with the other guys to basically keep your mouth shut and play great drums. Don't ask anyone for anything, instead give. Give them a great solid beat to work around. Give them the gift of knowing your instrument and your role in the band without fanfare. Then I told him to cut the emails, he needs to learn his craft on his own time. I don't mind him asking me questions, but he is shooting himself in the foot if he continues to "bug" the leader with stuff that the leader really shouldn't be bothered with.

Now this leader freely acknowledges that the drummer is the most important guy in the band in that if his time doesn't feel good, the band doesn't feel good. But I definitely get the feeling that there is a heirarchy with him. Which is fine with me. As long as he keeps asking me to play, I will stay in my "place" lol.


So this kid has no idea that there's more to it than playing drums. The social aspect of it is important. I've gotten fired in the past because I was too uppity, too opinionated and didn't understand my "place". Does this ring true for any others here?

I am also interested in hearing the opinions of the pros here, Matt, Bermuda, Joe Morris. I wonder if the pecking order happens on the higher levels.
 
Yes, there very much is a pecking order and drummers and percussionists are usually at the bottom of it. There are exceptions, like when the drummer is the bandleader, songwriter, bankroller or singer, but in general, the closer you are to the front of the stage and/or the more songwriting/melody playing you do, the higher you are on the pecking order.
 
Seems to be an issue of self-confidence. Any pecking order should only be defined by ability, whether that be musical, leading, organising. Any musician who presumes a drummer to be found at the bottom of the pile is the worst kind of amateur.

It's unfortunate on this kid that the guitarist guy has such a terrible ego; he's doing the right thing by asking for advice from non-drummer musicians, yet he's getting attitude for it. I'm sure he'll move on.
 
With reference to both my present phase & much earlier playing existence;

If I'm hired, the person who's paying me is the boss.

If I join a band that is the vision of one person, I've subscribed to that vision, & they're the boss.

If I join a band that's formed as a creative partnership, there is no boss, I'm one of -----

To me, there is no, & never has been, any grey area. I do not, & never will accept supriority based on instrument played. I get the ground rules nailed down before I sign up for anything.

All of that said, of course, I accept that different players occupy a position of greater importance to the success of the act. That's usually, but not always, the vocalist.
 
With reference to both my present phase & much earlier playing existence;

If I'm hired, the person who's paying me is the boss.

If I join a band that is the vision of one person, I've subscribed to that vision, & they're the boss.

If I join a band that's formed as a creative partnership, there is no boss, I'm one of -----

To me, there is no, & never has been, any grey area. I do not, & never will accept supriority based on instrument played. I get the ground rules nailed down before I sign up for anything.

All of that said, of course, I accept that different players occupy a position of greater importance to the success of the act. That's usually, but not always, the vocalist.

THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

As for why drummers seem to float to the bottom more often than not I continue to believe it's about mindset alone.

You are what you eat...and unfortunately many drummers choose not to be all that particular about what they're willing to consume.
 
I see my fair share of drummers. Most give drummers a bad name, and I think the pecking order largely stems from the fact that most drummers don't play for the music, they play for themselves.

When you do get a really good drummer, who understands the music, and their role in making that music work, the guitarist I mentioned treats them more like an equal, but not all the way. In other words until you prove your abilities, his attitude is that most drummers are disposable. His attitude towards me started as disposable, in 2003. I've since improved quite a bit these last 8 years and his attitude towards me is directly proportional to my playing level. Now I feel more on par with him, but he will always have the last word, which is fine. He really is all that.

Some guys I see...not just drummers...they have no concept of the larger picture, they just want to look cool and play as many notes as possible, ugh. I just want to smack them sometimes. It's socially inconsiderate I think to play jazz drums on a 6/8 slow blues tune. Or play an over the top lead with too many notes in a somber type song. I witnessed both those scenarios just last night.
 
In my experience, the "pecking order" consists of a band leader--appointed or not--and then everyone else. In any group of people, someone will always emerge as the group leader in some way or another. The band leader dictates the group dynamic and how strictly or loosely they adhere to the pecking order. In all the groups I've been with that's the way its been. Luckily, all the band leaders I've had to deal with were cool, and the group dynamic they established was pretty lax. But I can definitely see how a pecking order can easily be established. It'll be based on virtuosity and popularity/personal relationship with the band leader.

This reminds me of the thread Bo just started about true drummers having loud personalities and playing loud instruments and if you don't fit into that archetype or can't deal with the volume, then maybe drums aren't for you. The pecking order does disturb this notion. The loud drummer counting off tunes, holding the band together, setting the groove, gets stuck on the bottom of the totem pole with this pecking order. Its seems really backwards... I don't know if that's a good or bad thing, its just and interesting situation to think about.

I feel my biggest flaw as a drummer is not having the big personality trait. Behind the kit I'm a different person, but I could never be a band leader; even counting tunes gets me nervous. I just know I'm never going to be that person talking to bar owners, getting the gigs for the group, or anything like that. So does that mean I'm at the bottom of the pecking order because its me? or because that's the way it is? does that mean drumming was never "for me" as Bo suggests? (NO!, haha)
 
Don't ask anyone for anything, instead give. Give them a great solid beat to work around. Give them the gift of knowing your instrument and your role in the band without fanfare.

Good advice.

I think once you get to a certain level (--you've put your time in, people know you/know what you can do), you get a little more "voice" in what's going on in an original act.

People will listen if you've proven yourself reliable, and know what you're talking about...at least it may be taken into consideration. But, DON'T be pushy about it (you're still the "drummer" haha!).

In any sideman situation, just do your job as best you can, every time, and don't play over anyone--ever.

If you can't enjoy playing simply, and what a song really needs (you have to trow things in for whatever reason), you won't get many call backs.

Unless you are told to "play what you want, because we do "our" version", people DON'T want to hear extra fills, or crashes/splashes in songs that don't have them in the original.

If I were a singer (or band leader), of a cover band, it would drive me NUTS to hear a bunch of splash cymbals and hi-hat shickty-shickity double stroke stuff I've heard guy's do in bands.
NO ONE but MAYBE another drummer in an audience wants to hear any of that--and probably the other drummer wouldn't give a crap or is thinking "why did they do that?".

That's not to say play everything note for note to an original, or be boring. Just be smart about what you're doing, and keep your "creativity" in the same style as the song. Simple doesn't mean boring or stupid--as Steve jordan has said, but you have to make simple, or the song feel good.

Another good thing to be is "self-contained", meaning, you don't need to rely on anyone else to get your part of the job done (transportation, equipment etc...).

So, show up (before) on time, be ready, play, smile, hopefully get some dough and a call back.

IMO, apart from your general treatment, if someone really wants, or needs "a say"--start your own band and be the leader.

The young guy should have just been casual about things, and not slinging off a bunch of emails.
Live and learn though, that's all you can do.

That's my 2 cents (or maybe it's 50 cents haha!)
 
I feel my biggest flaw as a drummer is not having the big personality trait. Behind the kit I'm a different person, but I could never be a band leader; even counting tunes gets me nervous. I just know I'm never going to be that person talking to bar owners, getting the gigs for the group, or anything like that. So does that mean I'm at the bottom of the pecking order because its me? or because that's the way it is? does that mean drumming was never "for me" as Bo suggests? (NO!, haha)

In my experience, bandleaders/guitarists prefer a drummer that is humble and just does their job. Uppity drummers are slightly frowned upon in my world. The support we provide onstage...I find that if I carry that over to the social aspect of it..it's good for me in getting hired. For instance if someone comes up to me and throws me a genuine compliment, if the other musicians are within earshot I always respond by saying something like "it's easy to sound good when you have musicians like these to play behind". It serves me well. Humbleness is a good thing socially for drummers IMO.

Unhumble drummers annoy me too, good or bad. Actually unhumble people in general annoy me
 
With reference to both my present phase & much earlier playing existence;

If I'm hired, the person who's paying me is the boss.

If I join a band that is the vision of one person, I've subscribed to that vision, & they're the boss.

If I join a band that's formed as a creative partnership, there is no boss, I'm one of -----

To me, there is no, & never has been, any grey area. I do not, & never will accept supriority based on instrument played. I get the ground rules nailed down before I sign up for anything.

All of that said, of course, I accept that different players occupy a position of greater importance to the success of the act. That's usually, but not always, the vocalist.

^ This

And I've been in all three places.

My last band, I was appointed manager and leader actually, because I formed it, it was all done in my studio, and I was the most gung-ho about getting things done.

The other original bands I was in, I wasn't the song writer, so the song writer (who was also the singer) was the leader. Although in my industrial-hard rock band I was the clear #2 and everyone else was expendable.

If I'm just hired for a gig, then I'm an employee, and I'll happily do as I'm told for that wad of cash in the boss's pocket.
 
THIS ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

As for why drummers seem to float to the bottom more often than not I continue to believe it's about mindset alone.

You are what you eat...and unfortunately many drummers choose not to be all that particular about what they're willing to consume.

I agree.

When I was doing bars around the San Francisco bay area, I noticed most drummers were only concerned about how much the next gig paid, and even if they accepted a gig, they would sub it out if a better paying gig came along.

It sort of drove me nuts because no one was thinking of where any of this was going, where their careers were going, or anything beyond if a gig paid $50, $75 or $100 for a night. The mentality was they were the bottom of the pecking order, because they allowed themselves to be.
 
Larry, the bands I played in always seemed to have the guys that were "out front" be kind of the leaders. Bass, Lead Guitar, etc. I think because they get seen the most, sing most of the songs, banter with the audience and interract with them that they are kind of looked at and take it upon themselves to be the "leaders". Us drummers just sit in the back keeping the groove and keeping the band on track. It sucks but that just seems to be how it always worked out. My bandmates knew I was a very strong player and respected my ability but when it was showtime they were the ones that carried most of the show whether they were good or bad.
 
..

KIS has kinda nailed it- QED, but I also think it applies somewhat more to blues bands. A lot of blues combos work so much off the dynamic of the guitar player or singer and there's so much juice in that expression, that the rest of the band kinda has to follow along, second fiddle,specially the drummer. BB King's drummer ( forget his name ), talks a lot about that too.

Personally speaking anytime I've felt this bottom of the heap feeling is when I'm playing with blues cats. "Shuffle along for 12 bars and make my song feel nice"! is the unsaid part. Well, in a way thats what we're supposed to do, so no big complaints there.

My 2 centavos....

...
 
This is an interesting discussion. If I'm doing a gig as a sideman, I always defer and go out of my way to ask what the other players want from me. And I try to give it to them. But in almost every band I've been in, I've assumed a leadership role at certain times, at least in certain situations. I can't say I've ever felt at the bottom of the pecking order in any band I've been in.
 
It depends how useful you are. I make it my business to be very useful indeed. In turn, this gains me more influence. Surely, the single factor is expendability.
 
Pecking order is an interesting term to use. Sounds like petty BS when that term is used, and I think that fits just fine.

Unless I'm just a hired hand I want to be treated as an equal both in terms of my input to the music and the way we all play it together. Creative and style input from all members is what makes music really interesting. When someone just wants to lay down their vision and have everyone else follow, it usually ends up sounding like pretentious blather to me.

I've always been drawn to "support" positions more than lead positions. Drums counts. I think my gravitation towards these roles leads me to be opinionated when it comes to lack of equality in a group. We can't really make melodies, but when done right, people would certainly notice if we weren't there. We hold things together. From that standpoint, I know what my role is. I guess my point is that I think I know my role better than the guitar player does. I think the bass player knows his role and what the music needs on his end better than anyone else, too. I certainly don't want a specific military style ranking to tell me that I can never be right in a disagreement with those higher in the peck order.

A hired gun is one thing, but in a real band situation, I think we should all peck at the same thing, at the same time. As long as everyone fits well together, and truly respects everyone else as musicians with ideas, and strengths, I think this works best.

In your original story, I don't think I'd have much fun playing with the high and mighty "leader".
 
I'm not saying drummer's should be at the top all the time, but I am tired of good drummers being treated like the bottom.

Who moves the band? Who makes it feel good? We do.

Just think about it. What if the singer just suddenly stopped singing? Or the same thing with the bass or guitar player? It would sound weird but not that weird. But if we stopped playing suddenly, it will feel like you missed a step on the stairs.

We drive the boat folks, that's just the way it is. We shouldn't lord it over anyone, but that means we deserve to be treated with respect.
 
Humbleness is a good thing socially for drummers IMO.

Unhumble drummers annoy me too, good or bad. Actually unhumble people in general annoy me
I couldn't agree more Larry. My very black & white view on pecking order, or lack of pecking order, as the case may be, is nothing to do with demeanor. I like things crystal clear from the outset. That way, there's no surprises, nothing to navigate around, & that leaves me free to concentrate on the job in hand. It's was my way when I used to scratch a megre living from drumming, it's been my way in business over the years, & it's still my way now when I'm playing purely for my own enjoyment.

I get that things are sometimes different in a blues or jazz style environment, to some extent at least. Very often, such a band is more of a prominent artist & backing band. That's no excuse for layers of perceived superiority though. The very style of music often dictates the act is steered from the front line, & sometimes unscripted. That leaves the drummer in a reactionary mode, so the die is set. Even then, I think a clear statement of captainship is helpeful, & if I were in that position, I'd be seeking clarification.

This isn't a hard nosed Andy. Once the lines are drawn, I'm the easyest going, accomodating, most devoted guy in the band. I earn my respect, & I expect others to earn mine.
 
It sort of drove me nuts because no one was thinking of where any of this was going, where their careers were going, or anything beyond if a gig paid $50, $75 or $100 for a night. The mentality was they were the bottom of the pecking order, because they allowed themselves to be.
This is a really interesting and important point worthy of a thread of its own.

As for pecking order on a jam night, I've been to a couple of these and it is really hard to work out the pecking order, there is all sorts of stuff going on. Some people are really in the know and it is interesting talking to them to work out the different characters that turn up. No wonder that 16 yr old is trying to work out what is going on, I struggled.
 
In the band I'm in with the "high and mighty guy"...he's not really that way with me anymore, but he does act that way with the amateur guys. (not outwardly so much, more inside joke-ey) In the past I've been in bands where a few members, definitely not all....clearly, their words towards me were definitely on the condescending side, only because I play drums. (Like what do you know, you're just a drummer yuk yuk)

I am able to let a lot go if the guys I'm playing with are good at their instruments. I am not too easily offended and would just let whoever be like they are. But personally, my silent opinion of them as people is greatly lowered because anybody who talks down to anybody else, without good reason other than needing to feel superior, doesn't have much respect from me.

The other blues band I'm in, I'm definitely an equal at practice. But at the gigs, one fella in that band usually gets on my nerves because he always sets up and puts his guitar right in harms way of me setting up. He is always asking me if I can use less room to set up, which as you know, you need a certain amount of room, and even more to actually assemble my drums. He gets annoyed when I either move his guitar or ask him to move his guitar. He's very inconsiderate in that way. But he doesn't talk down to me. He just has an air about him that his space takes precedence over mine. And there's zero consideration that I have many more pieces to assemble and need some room to do that. If I knock his guitar over, (hasn't happened) I'm sure he would consider it my fault, not his for putting his axe 12" away from where I am trying to set up.
 
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