Specific Snare Mixing-Could You Described it?

DiP

DiP

Member
Hello,
I need your help my friends

we recorded for our first album in a renown studio in Greece (that's where i live) with very expensive gear and now we are mixing my drums at a studio. So I guess the recording went pretty fine.

We recorded a LUDWIG LB417T 14"X6,5" BLACK BEAUTY snare with a mic on the batter head, a mic on the wires overheads and room mics. The tuning was low and the wires were loose.

Now mixing on another studio! What a headache! I can't reach the sound I have in my mind!

I'm a big fan of the snare sound in "Since I've Been Loving You" by Led Zeppelin and of course.. John Bonham!I really love this natural full sound of this snare.

I hoped my low tuning and the loose wires on my 14x6.5 ludwig black beauty (remo ambassadors) would help to come close to that sound if combined with good mixing.Am I wrong? Do you hear a high or low pitched snare on this bonham's snare? We have that argument with the engineer who tries to reach my desired sound.

I can hear (hope it's not just my imagination due to my will to hear it) some of this fat "Ludwig sound" on my recorded snare drum but It's not a rich sound. Equalizer's and reverbs didn't give me a rich sound. It has got attack, but i only hear a "snap" and a tone.. I can't feel the richness of the snare drum that i hear when hittin it live it's very hard to describe what is missing.It's not rich. Could a snare be crispy yet sweet and fat? That's how i personally describe bonham's snare sound in this song, Am I completely wrong? Isn't it sweet and fat?

It would be a huge help for me if you could define the qualities of this snare in the particular song. What do you expect to be the "secret" ingredient? I understand overheads and not the snare mics captures the sound I hear from the drumthrone better but the engineer claims that if we boost the levels of the overheads the song would not work as the whole drumset would be too loud too. here is an old demo recording of our song: http://brothersinplugs.com/music/01_Can_t_Find_A_Shelter.mp3

Another question.. From your experience, is mastering a big factor in the final sound qualities of the snare drum? or is it just a slight polishing?

Please help me if possible. Try to define the sound. The engineer doesn't seems to understand me, not even when i put him to listen to "Since I've Been Loving You".
He said he thinks the tuning is very high on "Since I've Been Loving You". I think it is low!

Here you can listen to my tuning during the recording.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw1MxFVdre8&feature=player_embedded#

It's sound from the camera but you get the idea. Am I in a totally different direction???

Any ideas?
Very confused..

Thank you very much for you time
Elias
 
Geez, I don't know.... sounds pretty close to me. Of course, there's a big difference between aluminum and brass, so you're never going to really get Bonham's sound anyway.

The high or low question isn't really an either/or; there are qualities of both in your sound and Bonham's sound. Maybe the ratio's aren't the same and there's also the timbre differences with the two materials. Not to mention whatever EQ they used back them compared to what your engineer is using now.

I would try to forget about exactly replicating Bonham's sound if I were you, and focus on getting a great sound out of the great snare you have (IMO, you already have it).
 
thank you for your advice MikeM!

it's not about replicating the sound put catching the philosophy of it. I've never realized it was aluminum!

I think one big question is whether you would call that kind of snare, a sweet sounding.
Does it makes sense to you the coexistence of crisp and sweetness? Or I describe it in a totally false way.

It's a pretty confused as you can see, sorry for all these questions.

Give it a try and make your own description of this specific snare drum sound. It will help me a lot!


Thanks
Elias
 
Words are probably going to fail me here but I'll try. I have a 6.5x14 aluminum Supra and a 6.5x14 Pearl Sensitone brass (Black Beauty clone) and I would probably say that comparing the two with the same heads and close to identical tuning:

Brass: Full bodied ring, slightly darker with more of a sweet thick crack.

Aluminum: dryer with less ring, brighter with more of a scratchy poppy crack.

I like your words of crisp and sweet. I would attribute crisp more to the aluminum and sweet more to the brass. But both descriptions are in both drums, just in different amounts.

Check out this video if you haven't seen it already about the details of Bonhams kit by a guy who used to work for him and knows a lot about his kit. At 4:20 he hits the snare, but also talks a little bit about it before that about heads and tuning.

And here's one more of some dude playing the same kit.

BTW: I have to agree with you that JBs snare is tuned pretty low on the studio version of that song. The live version is much tighter. Bonham used Emperor's on his snares, so there's also that...

Hope that helps!
 
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Glad that's helped. I don't think I can come up with any more adjectives, but I can tell you that a Black Beauty is one of the best snare drums on the planet, especially the 6.5x14 you used. From what I could tell from your video, you had it tuned up pretty nice so you should have no trouble getting a great sound out of it.

Unfortunately in these situations, the drummer brings his kit tuned up best he can and plays them to best of his ability. After that, it's in the hands of the engineer/producer. You may have input, but only if you're very specific (recordings are much better than adjectives), or know how to twidle the knobs yourself.

I doubt Bonham knew exactly what that snare sound was going to be in the end before it was finished - he likely just did his part and hoped for the best after that - that's the luxury of being on a big budget with the total pro engineer/producer who "gets" what you're after.

Good luck!
 
Well I can't disagree with you, it makes perfect sense.

Thank you very much for your attention! i am 19 and it's my first official record so I haven't faced those problems yet.

Im happy you found the tuning pretty nice , I also do but I had serious doubts if it was a good idea to tune it that low for recording. From your sayings it seems to be ok.

thanks mike
 
DiP said:
I hoped my low tuning and the loose wires on my 14x6.5 ludwig black beauty (remo ambassadors) would help to come close to that sound if combined with good mixing.Am I wrong? Do you hear a high or low pitched snare on this bonham's snare? We have that argument with the engineer who tries to reach my desired sound
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I've met many drummers who think that loose tuning will make their drums sound "bigger" in recording. But in many cases, the opposite is true. This is because all drums/heads have an optimal tension range. You will not get a "bigger" or "deeper" sound from tuning low. Its just like a guitar string. If you tune it too low, it string gets too loose and the sound sputters. Drums are no different. It takes as little as one quarter turn of one tension rod to go from a lively sustaining sound to a lifeless dead sound. On the other hand, tuning too high will "choke" the head, making it less free to vibrate. You have to find the optimum tuning range for each drum, which will give the right balance of resonance and attack.

My guess is that you tuned the head too low. Thats why you are hearing more of the snares on the bottom head than the tone and snap of the top head. As far as I know, Bonham used high tuning on all his drums. This tuning allowed the sound to stay coherent in spite of the fact that they used a lot of ambience mics when he recorded.

His technique also added to the sound. So even if you find out how to tune a drum exactly like him, chances are you wont be able to create the same sound because you don't play exactly like him.
 
DiP,

Bonham mostly used a 402 Supraphonic snare, but according to his drum tech, Jeff Ocheltree, he did occasionally use a black beauty in the studio. But his drums were tuned very high. He liked his snare heads tight. His snare wires were somewhat loose. They did not use close mics in the studio, except for the bass drum which had up to 3 mics on it.

Here is a link to a clip of Mr. Ocheltree explaining his mic and tuning set up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mrN...46D5DDB9A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1
 
DiP said:
I would love to get 5 adjectives that would describe what you hear. Even 1 adjective!
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Ok, here's my five: bright, midrange-y, metallic for the good. But also thin and closed up for the not so good. Not a bad sound, but it is obvious that you aren't happy about it. My subjective suggestions about improving the sound would be:

First, it may just be the recording but the amount of dissonance I'm hearing in the quiet sections make me think that the top head isn't as in tune with itself as it could have been?

Second, I would lay the bulk of my suspicion at the feet of the mic/pre-amp combo that was used. Whatever they were, they didn't "love your snare." One thing you might try is to run the top mic track back through a warm tube pre and compress a bit to bring in some color and presence, rather than EQ or reverb. The reverb and EQ can only work with what is there. They aren't really going to add anything new.

Lastly, watching you play, you looked a bit unrelaxed and your stick movement tended to stop a lot - lots of hand squeezing happening there. This can lead to a more closed up sound as the stick spends more time in contact with the drum head. This isn't necessarily bad or good, but it will make it harder to get a more open and rich sound out of your drums.
 
Brundlefly said:
Second, I would lay the bulk of my suspicion at the feet of the mic/pre-amp combo that was used. Whatever they were, they didn't "love your snare." One thing you might try is to run the top mic track back through a warm tube pre and compress a bit to bring in some color and presence, rather than EQ or reverb. The reverb and EQ can only work with what is there. They aren't really going to add anything new.
Click to expand...

looks interesting, I will try it.

Brundlefly said:
Ok, here's my five: bright, midrange-y, metallic for the good. But also thin and closed up for the not so good. Not a bad sound, but it is obvious that you aren't happy about it
Click to expand...
well in fact i asked you to give 5 adjectives for the snare sound on " since I 've been loving you" by Bonham but thank you anyway!
I like my snare tuning in real life! I find it rich but I can't hear that on the recording as well.

Actually I ask all the drummers here for tips like the one you gave me about the tube amp that may help to compliment the sound.(some warm qualities)

Thank you so much for advising !
Elias
 
IMO opinion the short answer is that your snare is tuned too low. Especially the snare reso. Don't be afraid to crank that baby down, and bring the batter up too. That will make the snare cut. Most snare drums I hear are tuned too low IMO. Yours is not real low, but still not in the right register to project all those wonderful shell harmonics. I think you can get the sound you want with that drum if you tighten it more. (Ever hear the expression, tight as a drum?)
 
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