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  #1  
Old 03-29-2019, 11:37 AM
cemguvener cemguvener is offline
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Default push-pull (open-close) technique

I watched tens of videos on youtube on push-pull. I practised for quite some time (let's say couple of weeks). I try it, take videos and it looks like I do the correct the motions. But somehow it does not get any faster than I would play with my "normal" finger technique. In terms of speed and precision, I can get nowhere close to the youtube videos I watched.

Does it mean that I am doing something "invisible" wrong, or do the laws of physics apply differently for me? Or maybe my wrist's physiology is different???
I don't know what kind of magic is going on there.

How long did it take for you to master it, I mean until you become able to play with such speed and cleanness that you would not reach with your "normal" technique?
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Old 03-29-2019, 11:40 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

Took me months to get to a point to use it at a gig.

Did you watch Gordie Knudtson's stuff?
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Old 03-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by MrPockets View Post
Took me months to get to a point to use it at a gig.

Did you watch Gordie Knudtson's stuff?
Yes, it was the most helpful one.
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

It took me more like years to get to the point where I could use it at a gig, although I would go months without practicing or playing during that time.

Post a video of yourself using it, both slow and fast. We can critique it
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:36 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

Took me about a minute to get the hang of how it works. Took me years to be able to use it comfortably while playing. Didn't even really know I was doing it until I was watching my hands one day.

Stick with it, it will come.
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Old 03-29-2019, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
..I practised for quite some time (let's say couple of weeks)..

If that would be the normal amount of time to 'master' a certain technique, we would all be like Weckl or Mayer within a few months..

Last edited by oldskoolsoul; 03-29-2019 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 03-29-2019, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

Cemguvener said he didn't improve speed after a couple weeks, not that he expected to master it in that time..
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Old 03-29-2019, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by Ghostin one View Post
..Cemguvener said he didn't improve speed after a couple weeks, not that he expected to master it in that time..

Quote:
Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
..I practised for quite some time (let's say couple of weeks). I try it, take videos and it looks like I do the correct the motions. But somehow it does not get any faster than I would play with my "normal" finger technique..

..How long did it take for you to master it, I mean until you become able to play with such speed and cleanness that you would not reach with your "normal" technique?..

To me there is not a word Spanish there..

Bottom line is, that practicing a few weeks is in no way a decent period of time to learn anything properly regarding playing drums, especially when learning new techniques..
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Old 03-29-2019, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

For me, this is a left brain/right brain thing.

I practice technique using my left brain, meaning I'm analytical, use exaggerated form, do repetitive drills, etc.

Then when I play, I try to be a right-brain guy, forget all about that stuff, and do whatever feels right.

Over time (months and years) some of the technique I've been practicing analytically starts to creep into my playing through an intuitive process.

I like to think I'm not stupid, I'm just slow. I've never practiced anything for a few weeks and seen much of a difference.
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Old 03-29-2019, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

There are always little things with technique and grip and such, but without up-close footage or seeing things in person it's hard. We're all different, so technique is a concept, not and exact science from person to person.

But yeah, you haven't been working on it long.

After 10 years I'd say I'm still working on it and if I don't need to play fast one handed 16ths or work on other stuff I'll often have to freshen up a little bit. Can't stay om top with everything while constantly learning new things all the time. It's what's needed or most interesting right now.
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  #11  
Old 03-29-2019, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
To me there is not a word Spanish there..

Bottom line is, that practicing a few weeks is in no way a decent period of time to learn anything properly regarding playing drums, especially when learning new techniques..
No, it seems you misunderstood the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostin one View Post
Cemguvener said he didn't improve speed after a couple weeks, not that he expected to master it in that time..
Absolutely right. I was not expecting to master it in a couple of weeks but expecting to see at least a slight bit of difference. Not seeing any change, I just wondered how long it normally takes for most people. That's all.
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Old 03-30-2019, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
..No, it seems you misunderstood the question..

..I was not expecting to master it in a couple of weeks but expecting to see at least a slight bit of difference. Not seeing any change, I just wondered how long it normally takes for most people. That's all..

Then maybe we just read things different, but to me that sounds very different than your initial question..

But, a slight bit of difference with what exactly..?

I have no idea about your current level, but lets say at this moment you play easily one handed 16th's at 115 BPM..Then now you expected to be able to play them with push/pull after a few weeks easily at 120 BPM..?

Or, a slight bit of difference with executing the motions better..?

And, to avoid any other misunderstanding, are you learning push/pull out of German grip or French grip..?

Because, if you start from German grip, you might want to check the principles of Low-Moeller too..
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Old 03-30-2019, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Then maybe we just read things different, but to me that sounds very different than your initial question..

But, a slight bit of difference with what exactly..?

I have no idea about your current level, but lets say at this moment you play easily one handed 16th's at 115 BPM..Then now you expected to be able to play them with push/pull after a few weeks easily at 120 BPM..?

Or, a slight bit of difference with executing the motions better..?

And, to avoid any other misunderstanding, are you learning push/pull out of German grip or French grip..?

Because, if you start from German grip, you might want to check the principles of Low-Moeller too..
Thanks for the low-moeller tip, I use german grip. But I think I will stick to practising push pull for the moment.
I asked a simple question and alteady got some very useful answers related to what to expect from practising this technique. I don't intend to get into a discussion about what I meant. Just assume what you interpret is correct, fine by me.
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  #14  
Old 03-30-2019, 12:55 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
..Thanks for the low-moeller tip, I use german grip. But I think I will stick to practising push pull for the moment..

The idea is, that if you play German grip and you bring back a Low-Moeller stroke to only 1 controlled rebound (instead of 2 or 3), basically you have push/pull technique with German grip..

Thats why i mentioned that..
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  #15  
Old 03-30-2019, 05:00 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
The idea is, that if you play German grip and you bring back a Low-Moeller stroke to only 1 controlled rebound (instead of 2 or 3), basically you have push/pull technique with German grip..

Thats why i mentioned that..
Moeller doesnít have open-close that Iím aware of, unless I have misunderstood it. If youíre just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, thatís push-pull, although I donít think Moeller ever taught that.
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Old 03-30-2019, 05:44 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Moeller doesnít have open-close that Iím aware of, unless I have misunderstood it. If youíre just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, thatís push-pull, although I donít think Moeller ever taught that.
I've already been over this with him and trust me when I say you're not going to be able to change his mind on the subject. Agreeing to disagree is the only path.
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Old 03-30-2019, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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..I've already been over this with him and trust me when I say you're not going to be able to change his mind on the subject. Agreeing to disagree is the only path..

As far as i know, i was not at all discussing or arguing anything with Push pull stroke..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Push pull stroke
..If you’re just talking about putting the whip forward into the wrist instead of arm, then yes, that’s push-pull, although I don’t think Moeller ever taught that..

Those last words i never claimed and yes, the first part is a big part of what i am speaking about..

I am out of the discussion btw..

Like i said before, bottom line is to keep practicing, check what Mayer says about the subject (including a big Low-Moeller reference) and everything will be ok..!

Last edited by oldskoolsoul; 03-31-2019 at 05:06 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-30-2019, 10:34 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
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Old 03-30-2019, 10:35 AM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
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Old 03-30-2019, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
How did it come to Moeller? Is it some kind of prerequisit before practising push-pull? If it's the same thing then why should I practise Moeller, if not...well then again, why should I practise Moeller?

oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments.

Apart from that. does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
Moeller is a good place to start because large motions are easier to master than small ones. Push-pull is, as he pointed out, essentially Moeller, except the wrist is doing the throw instead of the whole arm.

As far as ways to practice push-pull, here are some good onesó

1. Practice extremely slowly, on a pillow.
2. Practice downbeat-accented triplets, so the downstroke is the downbeat on one group of 3 notes, then the upstroke gets the downbeat on the next group of 3 notes.
3. Move between hats, toms, and snare while keeping up a steady stream of push-pull notes. Start REALLY slow with this.
4. Do 8 notes (or 4, or 16) of alternating single strokes with push-pull, then immediately, with no break in between, do the same number of notes with double strokes, also using push pull. Try to make the doubles and singles sound the same. This is hard, start slowly. (I adapted this one from Joe Morello)
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Old 03-30-2019, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
does anybody have practical tips on how to practise push-pull?
Practice on a surface with no rebound to develop your snapping motion.
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Old 03-30-2019, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
..oldskoolsoul, I appreciate your willingness to help, but please do not overinterpret questions or get into discussions just for the sake of arguments..

No offense, but am i looking like a child that needs some guidance on how to read or something like that..?

You ask a question about a certain technique, wondering why you are not getting the same results as all the YT-videos that you watch and asking if there is maybe something wrong with your physical condition or if there is another sort of magic going on, because you have been practicing allready the whole amount of a few weeks..

Just come back half a year from now..

Last edited by oldskoolsoul; 03-30-2019 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
How did it come to Moeller?
Wow, I'm glad I didn't mention Moeller, as I was going to. To me, the whole push/pull thing and Moeller technique seem so similar I would have thought a discussion of one would involve a discussion of the other, if only to clarify how they're different.

I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both.

According the Bill Bruford, at a clinic I attended, the two things you need to succeed as a drummer are a free throw and a pair of velvet trousers.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by TMe View Post
Wow, I'm glad I didn't mention Moeller, as I was going to. To me, the whole push/pull thing and Moeller technique seem so similar I would have thought a discussion of one would involve a discussion of the other, if only to clarify how they're different.

I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both.

According the Bill Bruford, at a clinic I attended, the two things you need to succeed as a drummer are a free throw and a pair of velvet trousers.
"Free throw-rebound-pull back with fingers" is what I use on ride at fast tempos. I mean like "unswung" swing pattern around 300 bpm. But I cannot play for continuous 8 notes using same kind of motion. Therefore I thought practising push-pull might help.

The basic idea of morller and push-pull is indeed similar, but push-pull essentially involves fingers, doesn't it? That's why I am surprised to see moeller here.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:44 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

The concept is the same, it's just a smaller motion.

There are differences and snall things that may not work depending on or hands, how German or French you go or whatever. Sometimes a tiny change in angle, maybe with where you hold the stick makes all the difference.

There's all sorts of stuff. If you play thin hats maybe you're not closing them properly? etc...
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  #26  
Old 03-30-2019, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
Moeller is a good place to start because large motions are easier to master than small ones. Push-pull is, as he pointed out, essentially Moeller, except the wrist is doing the throw instead of the whole arm.

As far as ways to practice push-pull, here are some good onesó

1. Practice extremely slowly, on a pillow.
2. Practice downbeat-accented triplets, so the downstroke is the downbeat on one group of 3 notes, then the upstroke gets the downbeat on the next group of 3 notes.
3. Move between hats, toms, and snare while keeping up a steady stream of push-pull notes. Start REALLY slow with this.
4. Do 8 notes (or 4, or 16) of alternating single strokes with push-pull, then immediately, with no break in between, do the same number of notes with double strokes, also using push pull. Try to make the doubles and singles sound the same. This is hard, start slowly. (I adapted this one from Joe Morello)
Thanks a lot! I never practised it on a pillow. I will try those steps.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
No offense, but am i looking like a child that needs some guidance on how to read or something like that..?

You ask a question about a certain technique, wondering why you are not getting the same results as all the YT-videos that you watch and asking if there is maybe something wrong with your physical condition or if there is another sort of magic going on, because you have been practicing allready the whole amount of a few weeks..

Just come back half a year from now..
Shameless me, how did I dare ask a question after practising only a few weeks and seeing no results? I am very sorry sir!
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by cemguvener View Post
"Free throw-rebound-pull back with fingers" is what I use on ride at fast tempos. I mean like "unswung" swing pattern around 300 bpm. But I cannot play for continuous 8 notes using same kind of motion. Therefore I thought practising push-pull might help.

The basic idea of morller and push-pull is indeed similar, but push-pull essentially involves fingers, doesn't it? That's why I am surprised to see moeller here.
The push-pull has a wrist pumping motion analogous to moeller
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
The concept is the same, it's just a smaller motion.

There are differences and snall things that may not work depending on or hands, how German or French you go or whatever. Sometimes a tiny change in angle, maybe with where you hold the stick makes all the difference.

There's all sorts of stuff. If you play thin hats maybe you're not closing them properly? etc...
Indeed, usually it's a tiny detail that blocks everything. And usually by practising, you overcome it without even noticing what you corrected. Push-pull trchnique seems to have good potential for such traps :)
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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The push-pull has a wrist pumping motion analogous to moeller
Sure, but moeller does not involve fingers, does it (not a rhetorical question, I really don't know)?
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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Sure, but moeller does not involve fingers, does it (not a rhetorical question, I really don't know)?
Analysis paralysis. The non involvement of fingers doesn't matter. It's just Pivot A and Pivot B.
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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..I've heard some instructors refer to "free throws" and that term seemed to cover both..

Correct, with the note that a Moeller stroke always more or less starts from a whipping motion, allthough there are also people (Mayer) sometimes speaking about a pumping motion..

The only difference in my opinion between playing Low-Moeller with only 1 controlled bounce, compared to push/pull (from German grip), is that with Moeller you only rely on a bounce as being the second note, while with push/pull you control that second note with a quick closing of the fingers when bringing the wrist back up..

Playing push/pull from French grip is a different story btw..
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

If you're playing double stroke roll rudiments, would you be inclined to use push-pull to get clean rolls, but use Moeller for higher tempos?
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Old 03-31-2019, 05:26 PM
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If you're playing double stroke roll rudiments, would you be inclined to use push-pull to get clean rolls, but use Moeller for higher tempos?
The reverse, or 100% push-pull.


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Old 03-31-2019, 05:29 PM
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  #35  
Old 03-31-2019, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: push-pull (open-close) technique

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If you're playing double stroke roll rudiments, would you be inclined to use push-pull to get clean rolls, but use Moeller for higher tempos?
It is quite possible to use 100% push-pull for double-stroke rolls even up to 130 bpm or so, even on a fairly slack head. The trade off is volume and stick height. Adding a little arm in will let you play louder.
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