Help a Dad out buying used set for son.

I knew a kid who had a set of Sabian B8 Pro cymbals that actually weren't half bad. I also agree with others when they say that for an 11 year old kid, the cymbals don't matter so much. They aren't going to know the difference between good cymbals and bad cymbals.

Heck, when I first started as a 33 year old adult, I didn't really know the difference at first either. I used to rehearse at this church that had a house kit set up with regular Sabian B8 cymbals, and until I got a better hold on what I was listening to, I actually thought the 16" crash sounded good, and hats were just hats. I will say though that I distinctly remember not liking the ride.

In any case, used mid-level cymbals aren't hard to find - Sabian XS20s would be more than good enough for a developing 11 year old kid. IMO.

I actually removed my comments about crap cymbals teaching you to smash. While that still holds true, there’s something to be said about learning the differences. It’s like parents spoiling their kids with a BMW or Lexus for their first car. Not only will the car be unappreciated and trashed, but how do you ever go up from there? To what, a Lamborghini?

Once you smash cymbals that sound like trash can lids or nails on a blackboard, then get real cymbals, you’re like wow...that’s amazing. Thinking about myself at 11 and even much later in my teens, it was about metal and smashing. Best to break junk! That said, a used set of XS20s will go along way. I had them for 10 years or so and up to only two years ago. Absolutely nothing wrong with going that route or equivalent.

11 years old-heck he's practically an adult in todays world (having sex at 12). Flynn-effect and internet-he's reading this thread aghast my bet (I'm disappointed some of the turns of the worm from all I respect). I was already on my second Ludwig kit by 11 -my Dad was super supportive of my brothers and I in regards to music (my guitar playing bro went though about 6 of them-all high end)and pretty aware of the world (Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam starting, lots of social changes, etc), as I recollect-though I didn't understand puberty at all LOL. 11 maybe immature but I'm pretty sure is way more aware than we give credit. I hope the Dad took the deal-then later post some vids of his playing impressing the heck out of all us-touche'.

AzHeat said:

I actually removed my comments about crap cymbals teaching you to smash. While that still holds true, there’s something to be said about learning the differences. It’s like parents spoiling their kids with a BMW or Lexus for their first car. Not only will the car be unappreciated and trashed, but how do you ever go up from there? To what, a Lamborghini?

Once you smash cymbals that sound like trash can lids or nails on a blackboard, then get real cymbals, you’re like wow...that’s amazing. Thinking about myself at 11 and even much later in my teens, it was about metal and smashing. Best to break junk! That said, a used set of XS20s will go along way. I had them for 10 years or so and up to only two years ago. Absolutely nothing wrong with going that route or equivalent.

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When I started in band in 5th grade, my cornet (I didn't even have a trumpet) was one of the worst instruments in the section. I always felt conspicuous with it because I was the only kid on a cornet instead of a trumpet, and it was really beat up - it was a hand-me-down from a cousin to my sister, and then my sister to me. (I actually started on alto sax - she wanted a new instrument and we traded the sax for a trumpet, and I switched instruments.)

I played that beater until halfway through 8th grade. I was battling with another kid for 1st chair, and finally implored my parents to get me behind something that actually played well. When I got my first good instrument, I really appreciated it, and took VERY good care of it. I've been that way with every instrument I've had ever since - I think that experience taught me to be appreciative of higher quality stuff. Once I got that new horn, it also inspired me to work harder.

I did a similar thing with my son. His first guitar was a $100 Squier Bullet Stratocaster. I bumped him up to a used Epiphone SG LTD I picked up a couple of years later (still only a $200) instrument, but when he started to show some real promise when he was 16, I got him a Gibson Les Paul Standard. (Initially it was going to be a genuine Gibson SG - there's a long story about how it ended up being a Les Paul.)

Once he got the Les Paul, it completely transformed him as a player. He was getting good anyway, but he was constantly working on his chops once he got the Les Paul. Now he's 24, and he's in 3 band projects, one of which is signed on an indie label and tours all over the place.

Taking that all back to this thread, I think that by making him get going with a pretty basic instrument, (that was still loads better than my crappy cornet) he appreciates everything he has, and he takes very good care of all of his equipment.

I think buying budget cymbals -- i.e. Sabian B8s, Zildjian ZBT, etc -- is a much better idea than buying even moderately decent cymbals for a relative beginner. One, a young drummer will start off with bad technique and be more prone to breaking cymbals. I broke so many when I started out. I feel a lot worse about the A Customs I trashed than the Sabian B8s. Two, it gives some sense of progression. And I don't buy that it stunts their growth. You wouldn't give a Lemond to a kid for their first bike, but they'll still learn how to balance. And Three, as they develop in skill they will also develop a better appreciation for higher-quality cymbals than if they have them from the start. I only recently started getting "nice" cymbals and I've been playing for nearly 25 years.

Wow I've never broke or cracked any cymbal just a few key holes (wait I did drop and warp one). I. still have my first cymbal from 1963-24 in Zildjian A ride. I think we all agree my technique sucks so I don't know if technique has anything to do with it??

Gottliver said:

Why? The kids 11!!!! It doesn’t matter!!! Our cymbal sensibilities don’t apply here. It’s all about context. Plus the S line ain’t worth $350. Maybe $12. $25 at most.

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This is why.

JpeBD said:

So I actually went to a music store today and played some of the ZBT's and compared them to the Zildjan "S" as TK-421 recommended as a "high-end budget cymbal", and guess what? The difference is quite astonishing. The ZBT's sounded like a larger version of what came with his SPL beginner set (pretty one dimensional with no "ring"), the "S" sounded much closer the "A" version. He practices all the time, and selfishly I'd much rather hear the "S" cymbals coming from his room that the ZBT's. And I'm sure he would as well.

...So, after all this, I think I am going to pass on the Pearl set, as I would most likely turn around and buy new cymbals anyway. I'll be on the lookout for a set with nicer cymbals, or cymbals by themselves and pick up a set later.

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So he was going to pass on the Pearl kit just because he didn't like the ZBTs that it came with!!! This solution gives him that kit plus the Zildjian S cymbals he prefers for a very reasonable price. Did you even bother reading through the whole thread before chiming in? Jeez.

As for your comment about Zildjian S cymbals being worth only $25 at most? Really, for a 5-piece set of very decent, almost new cymbals?!!?? You're just being an asshole. It's idiotic knee-jerk comments like this that made me not want to get any more involved in this thread. But I was trying to genuinely help the OP with a way to have that kit plus the cymbals he prefers.

GetAgrippa said:

Wow I've never broke or cracked any cymbal just a few key holes (wait I did drop and warp one). I. still have my first cymbal from 1963-24 in Zildjian A ride. I think we all agree my technique sucks so I don't know if technique has anything to do with it??

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A lot of it depends on how hard you play. Cymbals are a cast, rolled metal, so eventually every cymbal, if it's played enough, will crack, but hitting them harder cracks them faster.

I've cracked a few cymbals over the years - mostly through over-playing and crash riding, but I seem to do better now - not sure why.

trickg said:

I also agree with others when they say that for an 11 year old kid, the cymbals don't matter so much. They aren't going to know the difference between good cymbals and bad cymbals.

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That's exactly my point and why I'm such a warrior about this. They don't know the difference. You have no idea that you're developing bad cymbal technique and sound literally worse than you have to... I was really mad when I first got a bit of time on some real cymbals. Nobody told me just how different those stamped pieces of sheet metal were from the real thing. They're basically toys in comparison.

It's completely false that a drummer won't be able to tell the difference just because they're new. It's just not true. The moment you hit a real cast cymbal, you'll see how different it is to control, get different sounds, and even how different it plays just in terms of rebound and sustain control. It's a huge difference, a much bigger difference than the difference between two lower/mid end drum kits.

Lastly, if we're really trying to say that the kid won't know the difference between toy cymbals and the real thing, then how in the heck do we think he's going to get appreciable difference by swapping for another drum kit before he even knows how to play it or tune one?

I can't believe I haven't broke one hitting hard enough? I remember in 80s the old American Tourister luggage commercials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b1aRop-UbU. My wife and I had one and we took a trip-she had locked the luggage but forgot the key was on her chain and gave her car keys to her Dad. So we arrive and I realize we have no key. I wasn't too happy but I smashed and punched it to bits (we had to buy a new one) surprising me and scaring the bejesus out of my wife. I guess I was angry and it was a pretty violent death but she still tells people that story-like I'm some gorilla. Moral of story ads lie.

I broke one by dropping it once. =(

It just made a tiny little chip, but that chip turned into a crack and it immediately started sounding pretty bad.

I dropped one Doc and it warped it-sounded awful. It was barely visible till you laid it flat-BUT ruined it not a crack or ding in it.

TK-421 said:

This is why.



So he was going to pass on the Pearl kit just because he didn't like the ZBTs that it came with!!! This solution gives him that kit plus the Zildjian S cymbals he prefers for a very reasonable price. Did you even bother reading through the whole thread before chiming in? Jeez.

As for your comment about Zildjian S cymbals being worth only $25 at most? Really, for a 5-piece set of very decent, almost new cymbals?!!?? You're just being an asshole. It's idiotic knee-jerk comments like this that made me not want to get any more involved in this thread. But I was trying to genuinely help the OP with a way to have that kit plus the cymbals he prefers.

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Thank you for the high praise. Your reaction and language speaks to the value of your opinions. The S series are still terrible cymbals.

trickg said:

So what's the update on this? Did Dad buy the Tiger Eye kit?

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Hey Everyone!

With all the "spirited discussion" my innocent little post has sparked, I wanted to come back and give you all an update.

First off, I learned a lot from this thread, and I hope others will too. My big takeaway was the discussion on cymbals. Of course I knew there were many different grades and price points of cymbals. What I didn't know was the auditory difference that I didn't realize until I went to a music store and banged on them myself!

As a violinist and string teacher I can only compare the whole "cymbal debate" to when I recommend to a parent to buy decent strings instead of the stock school grade strings that come on most rental instruments. Yes, the nice strings can cost 4-5X more than a set of steel strings, but they sound soooo much better. Does a beginner, need a set of $75 violin strings (even more for cello and bass)? No, they don't. Will it make a $300 violin sound like a $8000 violin, no. But will it make their violin sound 2-3x better? Will this make the student feel better about their playing and hopefully cause them to practice more and love the instrument? In my experience yes. So I totally understand where people are coming from who say to start out with a nice set of cymbals because it will only benefit the student.

I will also say I was quite overwhelmed by all the opinions presented here, and I really appreciate all of them. I should have mentioned in the beginning that my outside budget was $450 for an upgrade, any upgrade. So when the whole cymbal debate happened, I realized that I could buy the original set I posted (with the low end cymbals) or, upgrade his cymbals, but not both at this time. I went back and forth debating which would benefit him more right now, upgraded hardware and drums (as you saw the SPL sets hardware is far from professional) or, keep current setup and upgrade cymbals (upgrading whatever I didn't somewhere down the road)

So, as some predicted, I waited too long and missed out on that set. But the story has a happy ending! Today I logged into my account and a forum member here has generously offered to send my son a very nice set of cymbals that he doesn't use anymore (free of charge!) I am not mentioning his name (unless he wants to himself) - but I will say I am overwhelmed by his generosity, so much so I had to walk outside and compose myself before I could start work again today. I was literally in tears when I called my wife to tell her!

So now, I am looking for a 5 piece set (no cymbals necessary) and I am pretty sure I can find something nice by his birthday which is the middle of this month.

Thanks again everyone - your help is much appreciated.

Check out the PDP drums that where made of maple,,built in Mexico,,
They are a great buy,,in your budget,,,read the reviews about them,,
The set came in cx,lx,mx,,,series

JpeBD said:

So, as some predicted, I waited too long and missed out on that set. But the story has a happy ending! Today I logged into my account and a forum member here has generously offered to send my son a very nice set of cymbals that he doesn't use anymore (free of charge!) I am not mentioning his name (unless he wants to himself) - but I will say I am overwhelmed by his generosity, so much so I had to walk outside and compose myself before I could start work again today. I was literally in tears when I called my wife to tell her!

So now, I am looking for a 5 piece set (no cymbals necessary) and I am pretty sure I can find something nice by his birthday which is the middle of this month.

Thanks again everyone - your help is much appreciated.

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Good stuff! Now you can proceed without having to worry about the whole cymbal aspect and how much that would cost, and you can focus on finding the right drums.

Now keep your eyes peeled for something along these lines:

• Pearl Vision Series
• Pearl Export Series (newer Exports - 2005 and forward, are probably going to be where you want to stay.)
• Yamaha Stage Custom Birch
• Tama Starclassic Performers - these are birch, and aren't as expensive as their maple counterparts, but are a fantastic value IMO.
• Gretch Catalina Series - newer preferably

If you keep your eyes open on this stuff and keep looking around, you should be able to find a nice used kit in that range that would be within your budget. (The Tama Starclassic Performers might be a bit on the outside - they are IMO the nicest of the drums listed above.)

Let's see if we can keep this thread going and help Dad get his kid into a nice setup!

Congrats on the cymbals.

Bluekit said:

Check out the PDP drums that where made of maple,,built in Mexico,,
They are a great buy,,in your budget,,,read the reviews about them,,
The set came in cx,lx,mx,,,series

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The PDP (Pacific Drums and Percussion) Mexican stuff is great stuff that has fallen off a lot of people's radars. I played a CX (Wrap) silver sparkle kit for a long time. Only reason I sold them was that I was moving and didn't have space anymore. The CX/LX/MX were maple, the letter difference was what finish they had. A friend of mine had the FS kit, which was statin birch which was nice as well.

I think you can find them for $300-400 now and there are a lot of them out on the used market. I think Guitar Center pushed them pretty hard when they came out so a lot of people ended up getting them and thus later ending up on the used market. I also think that it was due to that early Pacific stuff that a lot of other companies were forced to step up their game in that price range.

Pearl Vision Birch drums are another one you can usually find around for $350-450.

trickg said:

Now keep your eyes peeled for something along these lines:

• Yamaha Stage Custom Birch

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I must be getting better at this because I saw a set of those on ebay (price too high though) and I really liked the looks of them, admittedly I look at the aesthetics first, then I research the set itself and go to youtube and watch someone play them. Since our music room is basically the living room, these would look really nice and not be as "in your face" as the tiger set. I'll keep looking, if anyone has the itch and wants to search the Harrisburg, PA craigslist and find me a gem - I'd be really grateful!

JpeBD said:

I must be getting better at this because I saw a set of those on ebay (price too high though) and I really liked the looks of them, admittedly I look at the aesthetics first, then I research the set itself and go to youtube and watch someone play them. Since our music room is basically the living room, these would look really nice and not be as "in your face" as the tiger set. I'll keep looking, if anyone has the itch and wants to search the Harrisburg, PA craigslist and find me a gem - I'd be really grateful!

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I've got a set of maple Pearl SMX Session Customs that were right at $1100 for the 4-piece shell pack when I bought them brand new in 2006. If something catastrophic were ever to happen to those drums, I would have absolutely no qualms with a Yamaha Stage Custom Birch. They look good, they sound great, and where the rubber hits the road - shell construction and bearing edges, I believe they are every bit as good as my Pearls. I'd probably upgrade the hoops, but past that, they are IMO one of the best values in drums to be had these days.

A few years back I was drumming for a church, and they offered to buy a kit so that I wouldn't have to lug my stuff back and forth, and they gave me the latitude to pick the drums I wanted, within reason of course - they did have a budget. I chose the Yamaha Stage Custom Birch, and was fairly impressed with it once I got it set up and dialed in.

BertTheDrummer said:

Congrats on the cymbals.



The PDP (Pacific Drums and Percussion) Mexican stuff is great stuff that has fallen off a lot of people's radars. I played a CX (Wrap) silver sparkle kit for a long time. Only reason I sold them was that I was moving and didn't have space anymore. The CX/LX/MX were maple, the letter difference was what finish they had. A friend of mine had the FS kit, which was statin birch which was nice as well.

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Like these?
https://baltimore.craigslist.org/msg/d/randallstown-pdp-cx-series-drum-kit/6834295787.html