Zildjian- vintage vs newer

brushes

Well-known member
When I was a young teenager (oh, that sounds harsh. Man, I am old...), all I knew what Zildjian and Paiste. I wanted to have both, because that was, what I knew and what the drummers that I idolized played. Moon, Paice, Copeland and Bonham played Paiste, Ringo, Simon Phillips and Tony Williams played Zildjian.

I have played and heard some old Zildjians and some sounded fantastic, some however were not really impressive at all. The weird thing for me with Zildjian is - most of the time, when I hear a recording with Zildjians, they sound good most of the time. When I play those cymbals myself, they usually sound horrible. I have e.g. played a 20" K Ride and it sounded really really awful. The A's sound super-cheap and clangy for me. Yet, when Peter Erskine plays his A's, they sound mostly good. It's weird. I played a 17" K Custom Hyrid Crash and it was wonderful, I played another one and it was - boring. It seems to be way too much hit and miss with Zildjian. You really have to search for finding a good one (new or vintage stuff). Maybe the mass-manufacturing has to do with it, I don't know. But the chance to get a bad Zildjian is IMO much bigger than getting a good one. Maye Zildjian should stop going for insane mass-production and concentrate more on quality.

When I compare the expensive Zildjians (Kerope, Constantinoples) e.g. to some Istanbuls (Agop/Mehmet), those Zildjians in general sound average. Way too pricey for what they offer IMO.

And - as pointed out already - the design... ugh. The big K, ... I really cannot stand it. It is SO ugly.

What is also quite amusing is that the new Avedis is marketed as the "best replication of that old vintage Avedis sound". Well, if that is the best replication, ... good night. Those cymbals sound VERY different, no matter what Paul Francis and his marketing crew proclaim. Ziljian is over-enarmoured with "their own history", it's comical already. Especially when you know that the "good old Zildjians" of today are made in Canada.

My first recommendation for Zildjian would be: Stop talking marketing bull. Clear up that mess of cymbal-lineup you have. Make SMALL logos, get rid of that ugly fat K and A and I and S. Concentrate on quality rather quantity. The other companies (Meinl, Paiste, Sabian, Istanbul) make - all in all - much better quality cymbals these days. Meinls Foundry Reserves e.g. are expensive - but at least they are worth the money!
 

wraub

Well-known member
My Zildjian cymbals are all about 25-30 years old, except for the 60s-era ride, and they all make the sounds I want to hear- except for the ride, which is good but is a wild thing which needs almost no coaxing to sonically dominate everything nearby. It's a demanding thing.

The ride has no ink logos, the splash has one underneath, and the crash and hats have logo ink, slightly faded on the crash and very faded on the hats.
All have appropriate stamps (and serial numbers where applicable), so the ink is really just superfluous branding, which I typically avoid.

I usually only contemplate removing the remaining ink after threads like these. :D
 

wraub

Well-known member
Recently acquired another old Zildjian, this time a 20" late 50s ride, possibly a crash/ride. Good one or not, I like it very much.
No markings or ink other than the stamp, the aged metal just looks so good imo.
Kinda making me think about de-inking my cymbals that have ink, but I think it might remove patina I'd rather leave alone, so, inked they'll likely stay.
Still....
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Recently acquired another old Zildjian, this time a 20" late 50s ride, possibly a crash/ride. Good one or not, I like it very much.
No markings or ink other than the stamp, the aged metal just looks so good imo.
Kinda making me think about de-inking my cymbals that have ink, but I think it might remove patina I'd rather leave alone, so, inked they'll likely stay.
Still....

That's the catch. In deleting logos from older cymbals, you might also be removing elements that contribute to their unique sound. I think you're making the right decision by letting the ravages of time unfold without intervention. Those stains, marks, and blemishes have stories behind them. Editing a diary can be a crime.
 

wraub

Well-known member
;)




20210219-153806.jpg
That's the catch. In deleting logos from older cymbals, you might also be removing elements that contribute to their unique sound. I think you're making the right decision by letting the ravages of time unfold without intervention. Those stains, marks, and blemishes have stories behind them. Editing a diary can be a crime.
 

SomeBadDrummer

Well-known member
My Zildjian cymbals are all about 25-30 years old, except for the 60s-era ride, and they all make the sounds I want to hear- except for the ride, which is good but is a wild thing which needs almost no coaxing to sonically dominate everything nearby. It's a demanding thing.

The ride has no ink logos, the splash has one underneath, and the crash and hats have logo ink, slightly faded on the crash and very faded on the hats.
All have appropriate stamps (and serial numbers where applicable), so the ink is really just superfluous branding, which I typically avoid.

I usually only contemplate removing the remaining ink after threads like these. :D
Excellent! What size is your wild demanding ride? Would you consider it medium or heavy?
 

wraub

Well-known member
It's a 22" that weighs 3110 grams. I think I have almost mastered the idea of playing on it, but it is a demanding thing when it comes to execution.
It goes from "Right" to "Roar" with almost no hesitation, and the Roar can dominate the whole kit.
I like it.
My 50s ride is 2060 grams, and is very good. I like it a bit more as a crash.
I like it very much.

Excellent! What size is your wild demanding ride? Would you consider it medium or heavy?
 

Lennytoons

Senior Member
It's a 22" that weighs 3110 grams. I think I have almost mastered the idea of playing on it, but it is a demanding thing when it comes to execution.
It goes from "Right" to "Roar" with almost no hesitation, and the Roar can dominate the whole kit.
I like it.
My 50s ride is 2060 grams, and is very good. I like it a bit more as a crash.
I like it very much.

I've got a similar 60's ride.
It's just under 3000 grams. It can be very loud and a bit rude from the drummer's perspective. Out front though it has a nice combination of ping and wash as long as you don't play it too hard...then you get the roar!
 
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SomeBadDrummer

Well-known member
6.6 lbs of polished brass with a sharp edge- better not carry that around barefoot. But I bet it can be heard in a large setting. How long is the sustain after a crash?
 

wraub

Well-known member
I just gave it a solid but not heavy hit, and from the throne it's clearly audible for over 30 seconds in an otherwise quiet room.
The crash sound is big and rich, and the sustain seems almost endless... it rises and glows and becomes a bigger thing, blooming, then, looming if you're not careful with it... The tail is almost gong-like. It's really kinda impressive. :)




6.6 lbs of polished brass with a sharp edge- better not carry that around barefoot. But I bet it can be heard in a large setting. How long is the sustain after a crash?
 

SomeBadDrummer

Well-known member
I just gave it a solid but not heavy hit, and from the throne it's clearly audible for over 30 seconds in an otherwise quiet room.
The crash sound is big and rich, and the sustain seems almost endless... it rises and glows and becomes a bigger thing, blooming, then, looming if you're not careful with it... The tail is almost gong-like. It's really kinda impressive. :)
30 seconds from one medium hit...that is an impressively quiet room 🙂 and the cymbal is the opposite. I imagine the sustain is even longer after you’ve been relentlessly riding its massiveness during a moody blues jam.
 

wraub

Well-known member
The ride is truly good... I didn't like it at first because I was new and dumb and didn't know what I was hearing, or how to play it properly. With control it sits just on top of everything and carries it all along.
I may still be new and dumb, but I understand it now, and that almost makes me smart. Oar something. :D

Lots of MyCymbal and MDS videos really helped me understand what's going on within and without, with drums and not, in mixes and soloed, and hear and appreciate all the different colors in a good cymbal and the palette that it can offer. I feel very lucky to have these resources for understanding, and I feel especially lucky to have these cymbals. They found me, and I'm appreciative.




30 seconds from one medium hit...that is an impressively quiet room 🙂 and the cymbal is the opposite. I imagine the sustain is even longer after you’ve been relentlessly riding its massiveness during a moody blues jam.
 

SomeBadDrummer

Well-known member
The ride is truly good... I didn't like it at first because I was new and dumb and didn't know what I was hearing, or how to play it properly. With control it sits just on top of everything and carries it all along.
I may still be new and dumb, but I understand it now, and that almost makes me smart. Oar something. :D

Lots of MyCymbal and MDS videos really helped me understand what's going on within and without, with drums and not, in mixes and soloed, and hear and appreciate all the different colors in a good cymbal and the palette that it can offer. I feel very lucky to have these resources for understanding, and I feel especially lucky to have these cymbals. They found me, and I'm appreciative.
Well the drier air of Arizona can make it easier for cymbals to find their rightful owners :rolleyes:, I'm glad they found you! I am enviuos of the 22" that weighs 3110 grams... Down south we have the humidity to contend with and those cymbals instead of finding us seem to hide in dark dank corners of used music stores, begging to be picked through like so many Barry Manilow records at a garage sale, fondled and struck repeatedly before there's a commitment to take them home for a good thrashing ;).
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
The Kerope is actually my favorite K category. Though its sound is the primary constituent behind that preference, its reserved logo is a supporting quality. I must admit that the giant vented K on other models has always seemed like overkill to me. My compulsion would be to remove it, but owing to its titanic size, deletion would be quite an operation.
"Vented"? Never thought of that description before. At that scale it reminds me more of a ploughed field.
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
Well the drier air of Arizona can make it easier for cymbals to find their rightful owners :rolleyes:, I'm glad they found you! I am enviuos of the 22" that weighs 3110 grams... Down south we have the humidity to contend with and those cymbals instead of finding us seem to hide in dark dank corners of used music stores, begging to be picked through like so many Barry Manilow records at a garage sale, fondled and struck repeatedly before there's a commitment to take them home for a good thrashing ;).
I approve of that approach to Barry Manilow records!
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
They say it is the most important meal of the day :)

Seriously though, maybe they will reverse the trend and go more stealth...but they will probably continue to go bigger in an attempt to sell more merchandise. 😩 It's all about the bottom line, so I expect that eventually the logo will cover the entire thing. Sigh...

Ralph has done the same.

View attachment 100567View attachment 100568
Tut tut. How polo can you go?
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
"Vented"? Never thought of that description before. At that scale it reminds me more of a ploughed field.

I'm afraid I can't claim credit for "vented" in this context. Zildjian uses "vented K logo" in its own product catalog. Truth be told, I like your "ploughed field" description a lot more. It bleeds with medieval implications -- or perhaps conspiracy theories related to crop circles.
 
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