Worst idea in Drumming

Frost

Silver Member
I stand by the opinion that WFD isn't any worse then a lot of Olympic sports, you just need to stop considering it music and start viewing it like sport.
 

Mikecore

Silver Member
Before it gets too far off the tracks, I'd like to point out that my negative opinion of WFD is not rooted in any technical problem. The truth is, I see nothing of real value in speed for its own sake. Yes, you can get something useful from it, but why not let the music take you there than go for "all speed all the time"?

Remember, this is all a magic trick anyway. I know, Butch Miles said so. Being fast is only one aspect of drumming, and without musicianship, it adds up to squat in the really-real world of music making.

Folks out there want to jam out and shake their butts. Fast only goes so far.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
I stand by the opinion that WFD isn't any worse then a lot of Olympic sports, you just need to stop considering it music and start viewing it like sport.
I get that, you get that, many of us get that, but thousands of drummers out there don't get that, and instead sit behind their computers and scrutinize every other drummer for how fast they are aren't. Like it freakin' matters.
 

Frost

Silver Member
I get that, you get that, many of us get that, but thousands of drummers out there don't get that, and instead sit behind their computers and scrutinize every other drummer for how fast they are aren't. Like it freakin' matters.
It matters if you want to be an athlete NOT a musician, I wish kids would realise that, even WFD themselves call it a new kind of sport.

The thing is, drumming at those speeds doesn't even help you if you want to play tech death as no matter how fast you drum you still need to keep in time if you want it to sound any good, that is a problem a lot of drummers going for those extreme speeds have, they need to clean up their drumming a bit and get it in time.
 
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Pollyanna

Platinum Member
...and Polly - if a man says something and no woman hears him - will he still be wrong??





(sorry)
Yes, of course, mogtey. In your heart of hearts you know that :)

However ... nothing is 100% and jazzin' has come up with the below pearl of a comment, even if he ignored my PM (a stereotypical male response, I might add :)

jazzin' said:
Man, when I'm lugging my crap around every single night and day to a different place to gig or rehearse I want it all as simple and light as possible. I want a tom to be just a tom with nothing extra on it. A stand to be just a simple, easy, light stand only solid enough to hold up my little cymbal, instead of some 200kg double braced, titanium plated, nuclear pulsed reinforced thing with nine arms on it.
 

shadowlorde

Senior Member
"custom" drum companies who make a 22x22 bass drum .. powder coat the hardware pink .. and paint the shell exorcist vomit green
 

Spreggy

Silver Member
When spokes came out, I tried to imagine the meeting at Remo when they were conceived. It probably started with, "Holy crap! All our distributors just refused delivery of 50,000 rototoms because they can't sell them! We're dead! Emergency meeting!"
LOL, I remember when they hit the market. I particularly remember a long blonde haired version of Terry Bozio being featured in Modern Drummer, complete with an early crazy-large kit. He had Spokes hi-hatted up, and I'm thinking ya know, you can take this big kit thing a bit too far.
 

Deathmetalconga

Platinum Member
It matters if you want to be an athlete or a musician, I wish kids would realise that, even WFD themselves call it a new kind of sport.

The thing is, drumming at those speeds doesn't even help you if you want to play tech death as no matter how fast you drum you still need to keep in time if you want it to sound any good, that is a problem a lot of drummers going for those extreme speeds have, they need to clean up their drumming a bit and get it in time.
I like watching WFD just because it makes my eyes bug out. But it has nothing to do with music, just like how watching someone break the running speed record has nothing to do with ballet, although they both rely on moving the legs.

I would like WFD to see how fast someone could actually play a real song that was recorded at like 300 bpm or whatever. I mean playing the bass drum, hats, snare, toms, ride, etc. like you would in a normal song, just at superfast speed. Now that would be getting more toward musical relevance. Even though no one listens or dances to music that fast, being able to accurately play that fast would be useful in developing some aspects of musicianship.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Seriously, all of you people complaining about the mounted floor tom, go play one that is mounted well! Again, mine sits on a light-weight stand, and I have no issue with it at all. I rest all sorts of things on it while playing musicals, and it never bounces...
Exactly. Do it properly and you won't have a problem. Now go pick on something like "basswood" shells!
 

Frost

Silver Member
I like watching WFD just because it makes my eyes bug out. But it has nothing to do with music, just like how watching someone break the running speed record has nothing to do with ballet, although they both rely on moving the legs.

I would like WFD to see how fast someone could actually play a real song that was recorded at like 300 bpm or whatever. I mean playing the bass drum, hats, snare, toms, ride, etc. like you would in a normal song, just at superfast speed. Now that would be getting more toward musical relevance. Even though no one listens or dances to music that fast, being able to accurately play that fast would be useful in developing some aspects of musicianship.
I meant to say it has nothing to do with music, it's solely a sport, that's why I gave an example of 300+bpm music that still doesn't completely involve it as time is still a concern.
 

jazzin'

Silver Member
Before it gets too far off the tracks, I'd like to point out that my negative opinion of WFD is not rooted in any technical problem. The truth is, I see nothing of real value in speed for its own sake. Yes, you can get something useful from it, but why not let the music take you there than go for "all speed all the time"?

Remember, this is all a magic trick anyway. I know, Butch Miles said so. Being fast is only one aspect of drumming, and without musicianship, it adds up to squat in the really-real world of music making.

Folks out there want to jam out and shake their butts. Fast only goes so far.
I don't think it's got anything to do with music though and even the guys here who have done it and won say the same thing. They have developed their technique to a great level, along with their musicianship to the same degree, and when this came along they tried it out and did well. They would have had the same great hands, technique etc with or without the WFD thing and they all play beautifully. It hasn't changed any of those guys for the worse.

It's a separate entity from music altogether. That technique practice many of us do daily? They have simply used that to go in a comp. It's not as if they give up everything they do and just play single strokes all day long and stop playing music and let everthing else by the wayside. Nothing changed for them.

It does add up to squat in the 'real world' of music making because it has nothing to do with music making. It's just a technique thing. They don't try to pretend it has anything to do with it.

Anyway, I agree that WFD isn't so bad. I don't even understand why or how some get so riled up about it. It just is what it is and those that do it can and those that can't should stop thinking it has anything to do with music. It's just rudiments played on a pad. No one thinks they are making music doing it and it doesn't stop anyone from playing music outside it. It's not ruining music or having an impact on anyone playing music or the world music scene. If people that go into WFD come out and play non stop speed outside in the 'real world' of music, then they will get fired in two seconds flat so it makes no difference either way. They either do it and get fired immediately or learn very quickly that you don't play single stroke rolls throughout a whole song on a practice pad with a speed counter next to you.

I have a suggestion for those that really dislike it. Just think of it like this: The more players that go into the WFD, and spend all day, every day doing nothing but single strokes (supposedly anyway, or at least that's what some like to think they do) in an unmusical fashion, it just leaves all the music playing and many more jobs to you! So, in that sense you should encourage everyone you can to do it more because then your non single stroke roll, real world music making drumming will be seen for it is.

Annnnnnyway, I would go along with glowing sticks, 'drumming' shoes too.....because they are different from normal shoes you put on your feet. You put them on your feet and then press the foot pedals with them. Amazing isn't it? Revolutionary! They also are made by special drumming fiber that makes all your playing better. Just like those piano shoes that make your chords sound better.
 

jazzin'

Silver Member
Yes, of course, mogtey. In your heart of hearts you know that :)

However ... nothing is 100% and jazzin' has come up with the below pearl of a comment, even if he ignored my PM (a stereotypical male response, I might add :)
lol! No I didn't ignore it. Your inbox is full and nothing can be sent through. I tried to send one after typing a very long exciting reply which I'll never be able to replicate. So, you missed out! hehehe

Typical irrational female response. Not looking at the practical aspects of why.

;)
 

wloeb

Senior Member
Agreed. I really think it's dumb to see suspended rack toms mounted to the bass drum. Um, why you doing that exactly?

I think the worst idea in drumming is plywood shells. Plywood has its uses and advantages, like superior strength, workability, low cost and low weight, which is why as a wood composite (not real wood) it is well suited or construction. Plywood was useful in making drums affordable but with modern manufacturing techniques, I think mass-producing affordable stave or solid-shell drums is very possible and it would be neat to see that happen.
I don't think that plywood shells are a bad idea. Plywood shells make drums more durable than solid, steembent or stave. Durable drums are useful.

Wayne
 
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Pollyanna

Platinum Member
lol! No I didn't ignore it. Your inbox is full and nothing can be sent through. I tried to send one after typing a very long exciting reply which I'll never be able to replicate. So, you missed out! hehehe

Typical irrational female response. Not looking at the practical aspects of why.

;)
LOL - I remember being surprised that my Inbox was 100% full and I cleared some messages out immediately. Sorry 'bout that, Jazzin. It's a pain to type a message only for it to crash and burn on technical limitations *embarrassed* ... and one can hardly expect a jazz musican to create a message the same way twice :)

Or am I stereotyping? hehehe
 

mattsmith

Platinum Member
That's not the worst, though. THAT prize goes to World's Fastest Drummer. What a pointless exercise in futility. It should be regarded as an athletic competition that happens to use drums.
That IS what it's regarded as. How can anyone by now have missed that?

Go to this 2008 documentary I made with Boo McAfee and Johnny Rabb and check out my comments beginning at 4:28. I say it word for word.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VBUfxbo82s

Yep, the WFD concept is non musical but the abilities required to do it give the participants the technique a lot of freedom to play what they want to play when applied to musical settings.
Yep, I learned how to be a relaxed musician with a lot of endurance because of that comp. I also met a great many of the world class players I now have the good fortune of sharing business and performance associations with because of it.

And thanks to WFD, early every drum video on youtube is full of lame comments "oh, so-and-so can play that faster", without any regard to if said drummer was actually trying to play fast or not.
No--- Travis and Joey videos caused that. As for the fascination with playing fast---Buddy Rich 25-50 years before youtube.

Oh and DrumsEatDrums I really like your playing BTW.

I actually know Australia's fastest feet, he admits it's more of an athletic thing, it's like having shred guitar competitions, it's not pointless, it's just not musical but that isn't what it's about, it's about taking a skill (playing a drum) to the extremes to find the best of the best. It's macho if anything but no worse then weight lifting at the olympics.
Correct answer.

The WFD didn't cause that, it's a manifestation of the problem. You think without the contest people wouldn't still be linking to Inferno/Hoglan/Kollias/Marco videos to compete over speed?
Correct answer.

I stand by the opinion that WFD isn't any worse then a lot of Olympic sports, you just need to stop considering it music and start viewing it like sport.
Correct answer.

I get that, you get that, many of us get that, but thousands of drummers out there don't get that, and instead sit behind their computers and scrutinize every other drummer for how fast they are aren't. Like it freakin' matters.
Come on man, do you really believe that? Do you really believe that my 2-5 year old videos are bringing the computer enhanced drumming world to its knees at the expense of someone's live show or a musicianship issue that when pressed the same complainer can rarely explain to anyone's satisfaction?

The thing is, drumming at those speeds doesn't even help you if you want to play tech death as no matter how fast you drum you still need to keep in time if you want it to sound any good, that is a problem a lot of drummers going for those extreme speeds have, they need to clean up their drumming a bit and get it in time.
Agreed, a lot of the guys in those comps suck on all levels. But that's also why they never win. You can't play those speeds with bad technique. And again, it's not about playing at those speeds, it's about the endurance attained by the relaxation required to do it well. We have a callus /blisters thread that delves into this very issue.

I like watching WFD just because it makes my eyes bug out. But it has nothing to do with music, just like how watching someone break the running speed record has nothing to do with ballet, although they both rely on moving the legs.

I would like WFD to see how fast someone could actually play a real song that was recorded at like 300 bpm or whatever. I mean playing the bass drum, hats, snare, toms, ride, etc. like you would in a normal song, just at superfast speed. Now that would be getting more toward musical relevance. Even though no one listens or dances to music that fast, being able to accurately play that fast would be useful in developing some aspects of musicianship.
First paragraph, you're absolutely right. That's all it was supposed to be. It was only part of the practice regimen.

Second paragraph, yes that would be cool, but the only intention of those WFD comps was to see how fast you could play. Why should that comp have to assume any musicianship responsibilities for any reason? I mean when Usain Bolt runs a record breaking 100 meters he doesn't get extra style points for grace. But yeah I do understand the coming up with new techniques just to win speed drum comps, and yeah that's garbage. With that said, a lot of us refused to do that, saying that we would only compete the same way we would perform in a musical setting. That's why when you see Tom Grosset or my stuff, we played with sticks high, just like real life.

...also to say that something like that, or WFD is one of the WORST ideas in drumming, compared to Drumming Shoes or light-up sticks that break the first time you use them is a bit of a joke...
Correct answer.

Before it gets too far off the tracks, I'd like to point out that my negative opinion of WFD is not rooted in any technical problem. The truth is, I see nothing of real value in speed for its own sake. Yes, you can get something useful from it, but why not let the music take you there than go for "all speed all the time"?

Remember, this is all a magic trick anyway. I know, Butch Miles said so. Being fast is only one aspect of drumming, and without musicianship, it adds up to squat in the really-real world of music making.

Folks out there want to jam out and shake their butts. Fast only goes so far.
This comment is an old wive's tale disproved again and again on this forum over the years.

OK you say this...Yes, you can get something useful from it, but why not let the music take you there than go for "all speed all the time"?
Who said speed all the time?

Name one guy who was ever any good at this say speed all the time and not of course agree with what Butch Miles and many others say.

Mangini?
Rabb?
Verdi?
Grosset?
Me?

Right fast only goes so far/ totally agree man.

As for me, I like careful practice to take me to where the music is actually located, by gaining the necessary technical proficiency to embrace the higher forms. Jumping unprepared on a musicianship train only throws you on a treadmill. Those comps were an award ceremony for a practice exercise that was extremely beneficial from all musical vantage points. Sorry but it just was.

What's more, 2 years after my last run--- not one thing claimed by the naysayers came true. I actually picked up work of all musical genres, and most of it has absolutely nothing to do with speed. Ironically I'm going to be doing the Euro MTV Awards with a pop chillout band. Imagine that?

Moreover, the whole thing never produced an army of crazed misguided kids. In fact every single high end young competitor is doing well in high end musical settings and their careers continue to grow.

I don't think it's got anything to do with music though and even the guys here who have done it and won say the same thing. They have developed their technique to a great level, along with their musicianship to the same degree, and when this came along they tried it out and did well. They would have had the same great hands, technique etc with or without the WFD thing and they all play beautifully. It hasn't changed any of those guys for the worse.

It's a separate entity from music altogether. That technique practice many of us do daily? They have simply used that to go in a comp. It's not as if they give up everything they do and just play single strokes all day long and stop playing music and let everthing else by the wayside. Nothing changed for them.

It does add up to squat in the 'real world' of music making because it has nothing to do with music making. It's just a technique thing. They don't try to pretend it has anything to do with it.

Anyway, I agree that WFD isn't so bad. I don't even understand why or how some get so riled up about it. It just is what it is and those that do it can and those that can't should stop thinking it has anything to do with music. It's just rudiments played on a pad. No one thinks they are making music doing it and it doesn't stop anyone from playing music outside it. It's not ruining music or having an impact on anyone playing music or the world music scene. If people that go into WFD come out and play non stop speed outside in the 'real world' of music, then they will get fired in two seconds flat so it makes no difference either way. They either do it and get fired immediately or learn very quickly that you don't play single stroke rolls throughout a whole song on a practice pad with a speed counter next to you.

I have a suggestion for those that really dislike it. Just think of it like this: The more players that go into the WFD, and spend all day, every day doing nothing but single strokes (supposedly anyway, or at least that's what some like to think they do) in an unmusical fashion, it just leaves all the music playing and many more jobs to you! So, in that sense you should encourage everyone you can to do it more because then your non single stroke roll, real world music making drumming will be seen for it is.
This is the post of the thread and wraps the whole thing up in a nice little bow.

Might be time to put this one to rest guys. I remain amazed that 2 years after the last scheduled WFD World Championship that people are still all ragged out about this, especially in pushing along the same disproved issues again and again as if it were still five years ago. To me it just looks like all that indignation was at best misplaced. We all play better, we have more gigs with better musicians---not less, understand the business better and became more understanding of the other drumming subcultures via numerous debates over the years in public and on drumming forums.

You just can't go back in time and pretend the contrary outcome never happened.
 

JPW

Silver Member
Might be time to put this one to rest guys. I remain amazed that 2 years after the last scheduled WFD World Championship that people are still all ragged out about this, especially in pushing along the same disproved issues again and again as if it were still five years ago. To me it just looks like all that indignation was at best misplaced. We all play better, we have more gigs with better musicians---not less, understand the business better and became more understanding of the other drumming subcultures via numerous debates over the years in public and on drumming forums.
BTW, why haven't there been any more championships?
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Yep, I agree with that! I cannot stand those stupid things. I'm sure there are a lot of people that like all the stuff with no bits on it and want everything on it's own little stand but I can't believe those crazies! Man, when I'm lugging my crap around every single night and day to a different place to gig or rehearse I want it all as simple and light as possible. I want a tom to be just a tom with nothing extra on it. A stand to be just a simple, easy, light stand only solid enough to hold up my little cymbal, instead of some 200kg double braced, titanium plated, nuclear pulsed reinforced thing with nine arms on it.

... So, my beef is hardware. All the new heavy-duty rubbish that is included on drums now. You don't need double braced boom stands with weights on the end! Man, I have two tiny little Dixon stands that I got for about $40 (aus) each and they have lasted forever now without ever even moving slightly, tipping over or whatever. If I had to carry around a massive set of drums with huge heavy duty hardware bits and special tom mounts and suspending floor tom tings and all the rest, I would just give up. If I had to carry a bigger set than I do I would want it all lighter than even I have mine. But, I'm weird like that maybe.

I just can't wait to get rid of my Gibraltor bass pedal. It has this massive plate on the bottom, and all these little knobs and bits all over it, which is utterly pointless and weighs about nineteen tonnes. It's only a bass drum pedal! It doesn't need to knock down a building.

I wanna be out of the car, into the place with all my gear in no more two trips and set up within five minutes. Any longer is too long and any more trips is too many. I have a funny feeling I'm not nearly as obsessive about my stuff as most probably are. This is not a bad thing and not meant in a bad way at all. I just find myself bemused when people talk about marks where the bass drum pedal goes....I had never even thought about it until it was mentioned here. But then, I don't really care what it looks like or anything. As long as it's light and easy to take around and sounds great, it's all good.
I would just like to quote this post so it can be read again ... "some 200kg double braced, titanium plated, nuclear pulsed reinforced thing with nine arms on it" ROFL

Some people dis Dixon stands. When I was assembling my kit I asked for the lightest stands in the shop. The guy kept showing me these big things I kept saying "is there anything lighter?". Finally he delved into the dark cobweb-laded recesses to pull out these little Dixons that cost next to nothing. For joy for joy! When I saw the brand I had a brief twinge because I remembered how inadequate they were in a rock setting, but they're perfect for laid back drummers who hate lugging heavy crap around.

BTW, I find it hard to complain about WFD when I hear Johnny Rabb making those e-kits he promotes sound like a million dollars. I wonder how many kids have bought those kits after seeing his promotional vids and then wonder why the drums don't sound anything like they did in the video? :)
 
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