Why Is There Such An Anti-Jazz Vibe Here?

bobdadruma

Platinum Member
you know I have made myself scarce lately as things in life has changed, but when I use to spend HOURS a day going through this very forum and reading through most of the categories I have not come across this "Anti-Jazz Vibe" here on this forum.

I have seen some silly arguments, some folks that I thought were wrong, but such is life and not once did I ever take any of this personal...sit back, relax, and you will find that there really isn't this big ugly thing lurking around the corner as you so seem to be thinking. This is how you feel, I read that, but stick around, drop the subject, and you will see it all disappear.

Cheers,

JIM
Jim, Im sorry but I check my closets and also under my bed after reading a Jazz Thread on DW!
I'm convinced that there are monsters lurking!

Remember my advice: Listen to Jazz, Enjoy Jazz, But never talk about Jazz! Bad Jou Jou Man, Bad Jou Jou! You gotta keep the devil away!
 
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Average

Senior Member
you know I have made myself scarce lately as things in life has changed, but when I use to spend HOURS a day going through this very forum and reading through most of the categories I have not come across this "Anti-Jazz Vibe" here on this forum.

I have seen some silly arguments, some folks that I thought were wrong, but such is life and not once did I ever take any of this personal...sit back, relax, and you will find that there really isn't this big ugly thing lurking around the corner as you so seem to be thinking. This is how you feel, I read that, but stick around, drop the subject, and you will see it all disappear.

Cheers,

JIM
I think I have traced down what may have set Mr. OP off. It was in the now closed thread about a second crash cymbal. Eddiehimself posted something in post #17, which was responded to by Mr. OP in post #21. Looking at the time stamps of the posts (at least on my machine), I am thinking that post #17 may have been the origin of this thread.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Listen to Jazz, Enjoy Jazz, But never talk about Jazz! Bad Jou Jou Man, Bad Jou Jou! You gotta keep the devil away!
LOL. That's right, Bawb. In fact we should never talk about music full stop. What a waste when we could be playing it! Go! Go now! All of you! What are you doing here? Leave this place of temptation and go beget music - NOW! - and never come back!

Of course, if you enjoy a good old chin wag with other tub tappers you might like to stick around :)
 

con struct

Platinum Member
I think I have traced down what may have set Mr. OP off. It was in the now closed thread about a second crash cymbal. Eddiehimself posted something in post #17, which was responded to by Mr. OP in post #21. Looking at the time stamps of the posts (at least on my machine), I am thinking that post #17 may have been the origin of this thread.
So this is all about how many crash cymbals one uses? That seems odd.
 

harryconway

Platinum Member
I think I have traced down what may have set Mr. OP off. It was in the now closed thread about a second crash cymbal. Eddiehimself posted something in post #17, which was responded to by Mr. OP in post #21. Looking at the time stamps of the posts (at least on my machine), I am thinking that post #17 may have been the origin of this thread.
So one post, by one member, in one thread, becomes an Anti-Jazz Vibe Conspiracy. Taxi!
 

Ethan01

Senior Member
Blah... dunno why I'm doing this, but i'll chip in my 2 cents...

OP, you say you won't lose sleep over this, yet "jazz-bashing" obviously has caused you some grief. The real question is, why? Do you know how many times you might get told you suck, to your face, after a gig? Or how many times you might not even get the gig due to tanking the tryout? Or when people at the gig start leaving during your show? Or the next time you have 10 people show in a 100-person capacity gig?

There are bad things that can happen to you as a musician, and it's time to get used to them! That doesn't mean having thick skin and being unfazed by criticism. It means keeping your head high and knowing why you decided to be a musician, for the love of the music
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
There is nothing wrong with jazz, the reason i said that was because i'm sick of people who think that they're better at drumming than everybody else just because they have a small kit and think that somehow having a big kit makes you inferior in some way, shape or form. Yes, i realise that "jazz snob" is perhaps not the right term for it, perhaps "drum snob" or "gear snob" would have been a better phrase? I just think some drummers need to stop treating drums like some sort of sport where you're not allowed to deviate from the rules whatsoever, if it works for you then go with it i say. I think that's probably about as far removed from "anti-jazz" as possible.
Got it. I just felt like jazz has often been singled out on the whole snobbery thing. Are there jazz snobs? Of course there are. Are there also snobs in rock, metal, etc.? You betcha! That was my whole thing was that I felt like jazz has been unfairly singled out on the snobbery issue. I have, however, seen long time members that are jazz drummers say that this forum is not as jazz friendly as it was when they first came here. I haven't been here that long, so I can't compare the now and then. Here's a post from a long time member from the "Why Is Jazz A Four Letter Word?" thread.

This forum used to house a large jazz contingent responsible for an in depth jazz thread that for a year or so was as good as anything I had ever read on the Internet. That thread also explained the Wynton Marsalis debate in a remarkable manner. I learned a lot from those guys.

Personally over the past year or so, I've found the anti jazz vibe here stronger than on any other drum forum. I feel I can actually talk about jazz with less foolishness on the Roddy forum than I currently can here. And that's a shame because I've always considered this my Internet home.

My slant is similar to Joeysnare but with a perverse twist. I actually think some of the more aggressive behavior from the jazz guys came after a small but unending clique appeared almost jealous of the respect jazz was getting here at the expense of what they felt was a lack of appreciation for their genres. Now when you read an anti jazz thread, it starts with a personal or don't get it attack, which is then followed by the threadstarter doing the who me? game, while the last couple of full time jazz musicians left here carry the banner until they lose their voices.

It's why I don't try to bother anymore with that topic. Now I lurk here mostly, while thinking twice about a jazz debate, because you know that somebody is usually only out there to throw a piece of red meat, in an attempt to see if someone gnaws on it.

I continue to hope that all changes.
Like I said, I haven't been here that long, but there are members that have been here several years that have felt this way. I think, like I said earlier, that if you're a jazz musician you're going to be more aware of those things. I think that would apply to anybody when it comes to their style of music.

Thanks for explaining Eddiehimself. I'm very happy to see that this thread has stayed very civil and proven that we can have a jazz thread without things turning into a war zone.
 

Filacterua

Senior Member
I'll give you some quotes from a not-to-old thread, which logged in 600+ replies and 40K+ views:

  • I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what. Take Bill Stewart compared to Terry Bozzio.
  • For my money, the best small kit guys (Joey Baron and his ilk) win hands down on taste, musicality and creativity over the likes of Mike Portnoy.
  • I think it depends on the genre of music being played............Jeff Hamilton is a great example that defies your statement above ******.....not being a jerk or anything...but that guy plays BIG on a 18-12-14-5x14snare and 3 cymbals.......uses every trick in the book ........plays the rims....hardware...you name it.......I think the music being played is the key factor.........
 

eddiehimself

Platinum Member
Thanks for explaining Eddiehimself. I'm very happy to see that this thread has stayed very civil and proven that we can have a jazz thread without things turning into a war zone.
and thank you for actually reading my post in this very thread lolz. I think if others had done the same then this wouldn't have grown into being an anti-jazz conspiriacy. I think someone earlier got it spot on when they said about people lashing out because they feel threatened. I like having a kit with more than 1 cymbal on it and it's not very nice when someone says that you are somehow inferior because of it and maybe i used the wrong words but w/e.

So this is all about how many crash cymbals one uses? That seems odd.
It's not just about that, it's about people who think they're better than you because they don't have as many drums or cymbals and this somehow makes them more "creative". yeah, whatever. As i say, it's more of a "gear snob" thing than a jazz snob. Also before anyone says it, i'm playing a 4pc at the moment. I still don't think it makes me any better on the drums though. It just means i'm playing a smaller kit. End of.
 

Average

Senior Member
It's not just about that, it's about people who think they're better than you because they don't have as many drums or cymbals and this somehow makes them more "creative". yeah, whatever. As i say, it's more of a "gear snob" thing than a jazz snob. Also before anyone says it, i'm playing a 4pc at the moment. I still don't think it makes me any better on the drums though. It just means i'm playing a smaller kit. End of.
I think you're really onto something here. I think your 'gear snob' idea is right on the precipice of a very LARGE concept.

Personally, I use a set size that fits the room/travel arrangements. For the types of venues where live jazz tends survive (coffee shops etc.), trying to find room for a 7 piece kit with a 26 inch BD and 12 cymbals can be a bit of a challenge. Not to mention that big, loud, thundering drums will probably result in a lawsuit when the soccer mom gets startled and spills a boiling mocha in her lap. Try cramming all of that gear into the kind of car you can afford playing live jazz - a Toyota Corrola. That same 18 inch BD, 12 inch tom, and 14 inch FT look and sound a little out of place on bigger, outdoor stages. All of that delicate cymbal work you do just blows away with the wind playing with a rock band outdoors. I currently have 3 kits, ranging from a small jazz kit with 18 inch BD all the way up to a thundering 24inch bd kit. I play what fits the room. But I absolutely HAVE seen the 'gear snob' guys you are talking about.

Extending your argument, I would say there is at least one other area where minimalists can be a bit snobby - technique. There have been really explosive threads on here in which technique minimalists claim creative superiority. Numerous posters have called for me to leave the forums for pointing out that very often the minimalists in question are claiming artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess. I really really really got into hot water when I mentioned a certain fable by Aesop. OK I'm running now.
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
Great post, Average, second that. I think matching one's setup to a) the music one's going to play and b) the venue and the travel circumstances is absolutely the way to go.

In general, bigger setup just means more choice of sound. But still a guy behind 100 drums and cymbals can either choose sounds badly, and have zero creativity, AS can a guy behind just BD, Snare and HH.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Extending your argument, I would say there is at least one other area where minimalists can be a bit snobby - technique. There have been really explosive threads on here in which technique minimalists claim creative superiority. Numerous posters have called for me to leave the forums for pointing out that very often the minimalists in question are claiming artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess. I really really really got into hot water when I mentioned a certain fable by Aesop. OK I'm running now.
No need to run, because you're mostly correct. That said, there's a world of difference between those who choose to play simple parts yet posess the skills to execute more challenging stuff, and those who play simple parts because they don't posess the ability to execute anything but basic stuff. Most advocates of simple drumming fall somewhere between the two. Transitionally, having a lack of ability isn't a bad thing. Even the best players have been there themselves at some stage. It's being honest about what you are and where you're coming from that's important. Against that backgroung, it's clearly bad form to vociferously ramp up the virtues of simple playing as a means to mask your own lack of ability. Those who choose to play simply, play for the song, value feel above other skills, etc, and do it well, also very much appreciate the vital part technique plays in execution. A simple part played poorly isn't attractive to anyone.

So yes, snobbery is almost always a product of insecurity.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
Extending your argument, I would say there is at least one other area where minimalists can be a bit snobby - technique. There have been really explosive threads on here in which technique minimalists claim creative superiority. Numerous posters have called for me to leave the forums for pointing out that very often the minimalists in question are claiming artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess. I really really really got into hot water when I mentioned a certain fable by Aesop. OK I'm running now.
LOL - back to that old chestnut, eh? Average, I believe the term that got you in bother was saying some people here "can't play for crap" while suggesting that they claim artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess.

However, when ordinary drummers take a minimalist approach it could be could be said they are just making lemonade from a lemon. IMO it's a whole lot better than trying to make a Lemon Elaborer Plat Au-delà de la Capacité de Chacun et Finit par Sonner Désordre when one only has a lemon at one's disposal. That just results in a messy kitchen and a meal that's hard to digest.

Of course, someone with the fish, vegetables and sauces at their disposal can make a fabulous dish (eg. Vinnie, Joey Baron, all the old jazz guys etc etc etc) - to stretch the metaphor to breaking point ... but IMO those with drumming "lemons" are better off making "lemonade".

That was always the point. What you saw as minimalist snobbery was basically a pep talk for us primitive drummers to remind ourselves not to overstep our abilities and get sloppy. And, of course, we were looking at the bright side. ... that is, flawed music played by flawed musicians can have appeal ... as long as we don't play in such a way that we aren't trying to convince ourselves and others that we're "good drummers" and just play the music with passion and a spirit of fun. Sorry, that was a convoluted sentence. Does it make sense?

In short, that argument was just another big, fat misunderstanding with no participants having as sinister motives as made out by the "opposing camp". That fight's over as far as I'm concerned. Truce?

When it comes to minimalism I've always wanted to be as resourceful as I can with the bare minimum. That probably comes from being raised by a refugee who grew up through the Great Depression and WWII and a mother who grew up in a very rough, working class home. A frugal drumming approach seems to work nicely for someone with slow paradiddles like me, so I'm happy.

It doesn't stop me from being a fan of all those fab players in my YouTube Favourites that I posted earlier, though.
 

Average

Senior Member
No need to run, because you're mostly correct. That said, there's a world of difference between those who choose to play simple parts yet posess the skills to execute more challenging stuff, and those who play simple parts because they don't posess the ability to execute anything but basic stuff. Most advocates of simple drumming fall somewhere between the two. Transitionally, having a lack of ability isn't a bad thing. Even the best players have been there themselves at some stage. It's being honest about what you are and where you're coming from that's important. Against that backgroung, it's clearly bad form to vociferously ramp up the virtues of simple playing as a means to mask your own lack of ability. Those who choose to play simply, play for the song, value feel above other skills, etc, and do it well, also very much appreciate the vital part technique plays in execution. A simple part played poorly isn't attractive to anyone.

So yes, snobbery is almost always a product of insecurity.
I agree 100% with everything you just said.
 

Average

Senior Member
LOL - back to that old chestnut, eh? Average, I believe the term that got you in bother was saying some people here "can't play for crap" while suggesting that they claim artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess.
In retrospect that was a hastily written phrase and it could have been worded differently. Unfortunately I'm not much of a writer. There really isn't anything more for me to say about the subject.

However, when ordinary drummers take a minimalist approach it could be could be said they are just making lemonade from a lemon. IMO it's a whole lot better than trying to make a Lemon Elaborer Plat Au-delà de la Capacité de Chacun et Finit par Sonner Désordre when one only has a lemon at one's disposal. That just results in a messy kitchen and a meal that's hard to digest.
That is a real mouthful. It sounds tasty but highschool translation ability is a little rusty.

That was always the point. What you saw as minimalist snobbery was basically a pep talk for us primitive drummers to remind ourselves not to overstep our abilities and get sloppy. And, of course, we were looking at the bright side. ... that is, flawed music played by flawed musicians can have appeal ... as long as we don't play in such a way that we aren't trying to convince ourselves and others that we're "good drummers" and just play the music with passion and a spirit of fun. Sorry, that was a convoluted sentence. Does it make sense?
It makes perfect sense to me.

In short, that argument was just another big, fat misunderstanding with no participants having as sinister motives as made out by the "opposing camp". That fight's over as far as I'm concerned. Truce?
Truce.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
I agree 100% with everything you just said.
Awww, c'mon guys!! We can't have all this loveliness, It'll disappoint the popcorn buying auidience and promote vicious assertive critique such as this;

Ummmm... hmmm ...oooo... soooo...well...erm///
We could always engage the Jazz Police to sort it out though. At least we all agree they exist, just not here, only in Bernhard's town apparently.

Anyhow, I'm off to form a new sub group "I love Steamer's stuff, but I'm too dumb to understand it".
 

Average

Senior Member
Awww, c'mon guys!! We can't have all this loveliness, It'll disappoint the popcorn buying auidience and promote vicious assertive critique such as this;
Hold that thought. I think what happened the last time was a bunch of people chimed in and stirred things up - 'oh he got you' etc. We agree on FAR more than would appear at first glance. I like a good fight just as much as the next bloke but I don't fight just to fight. There has to be a disagreement.

We could always engage the Jazz Police to sort it out though. At least we all agree they exist, just not here, only in Bernhard's town apparently.
They exist everywhere. When I was more into the jazz scene some of them would absolutely ROAST me. Its not just the critics either. You haven't lived until one of your heroes has thrown a trumpet mute at you and is banging the time on his music stand with a pen. I've been eaten alive by big time players on stage and off. Sometimes you just have days like that. A lot of times I would just be told to show up at a certain time at a certain place with my drums. No rehearsal, no set list, nothing. If I was lucky they would hand me a trumpet part. I was 18 years old. I'd heard the standards but how the hell am I supposed to know every song that has appeared on every obscure record from the beginning of time on?

Anyhow, I'm off to form a new sub group "I love Steamer's stuff, but I'm too dumb to understand it".
I'm starting a sister group - "I love Steamer's stuff. I kind-of understand it but I need 20 more years of playing to mature to that level."
 

eddiehimself

Platinum Member
I think you're really onto something here. I think your 'gear snob' idea is right on the precipice of a very LARGE concept.

Personally, I use a set size that fits the room/travel arrangements. For the types of venues where live jazz tends survive (coffee shops etc.), trying to find room for a 7 piece kit with a 26 inch BD and 12 cymbals can be a bit of a challenge. Not to mention that big, loud, thundering drums will probably result in a lawsuit when the soccer mom gets startled and spills a boiling mocha in her lap. Try cramming all of that gear into the kind of car you can afford playing live jazz - a Toyota Corrola. That same 18 inch BD, 12 inch tom, and 14 inch FT look and sound a little out of place on bigger, outdoor stages. All of that delicate cymbal work you do just blows away with the wind playing with a rock band outdoors. I currently have 3 kits, ranging from a small jazz kit with 18 inch BD all the way up to a thundering 24inch bd kit. I play what fits the room. But I absolutely HAVE seen the 'gear snob' guys you are talking about.

Extending your argument, I would say there is at least one other area where minimalists can be a bit snobby - technique. There have been really explosive threads on here in which technique minimalists claim creative superiority. Numerous posters have called for me to leave the forums for pointing out that very often the minimalists in question are claiming artistic credit for not using an ability they don't possess. I really really really got into hot water when I mentioned a certain fable by Aesop. OK I'm running now.
I don't really get this. Because once again, you are suggesting that i think the only reason people play smaller kits is because they are arrogant people who think they're better than anyone else or insecure or w/e. This is exactly the opposite of what i've been trying to say all day. All i'm saying is you get people who play small drum kits, you get snobs. There are always going to be people who want to make it like they're the best person for whatever reason. And as i have mentioned several times already, play what you want. Just accept me for playing what i want and that it doesn't make me "inferior" or "less creative" as a result okay?
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
You haven't lived until one of your heroes has thrown a trumpet mute at you and is banging the time on his music stand with a pen.
I've been there. I am there sometimes. It's quite hard to cope with... My problem is: I get insecure quite fast in such situations - and because of that my timing or my sense of time gets lost completely.
 
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