Why Is There Such An Anti-Jazz Vibe Here?

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
To go with the original post, I do see some mild general snobbery here, but very little is overtly displayed. It's natural for each to be slightly protective of their own position, whether that be genre, perceived skillset, pro or not pro, etc. Occasionally frustration spills out. Just like any group of people, some will be very accepting of other styles, positions, etc, others will not. It's also very natural to be slightly fearful and guarded against anything you don't truly understand. I think Jazz certainly suffers from this to some degree. I find jazz to be less readily accessible for players of other genres than say rock, funk, etc. I find jazz players are generally more knowledgeable about the conceptual side of their craft than other genres. This can easily be misconstrued as snobbery, as it can for any other genre. Then again, like Caddy said, I do know a couple of 110% jazz snobs (not on this forum) and they're just as annoying as any other fervent snob.

I hope most forum members are accepting of all styles of playing. Even if you don't especially like a specific genre, the forum is a much less attractive and informative place without it. My stupid rock brain is steadily trying to appreciate jazz in all it's forms. I'll never get there, but I do find a lot of jazz material very attractive.
 

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
My view of jazz (and other styles) can be seen in my YouTube Favourites

To me, the musical world is a garden full of fruit trees, any of which we can pick from if we choose. Some just like one or two types of "fruit", which is fine as long as they don't dump on people who like other types.
 

JT1

Silver Member
A lot of people just say "I haven't noticed anything like that". Well, it's real easy not to notice it when you're not a jazz musician. However, I have grown quite tired of this constant label of snobbery being thrown at jazz musicians. Like in a different thread I was reading earlier when somebody said "We're not all jazz snobs who think that drumming has to have rules and regulations and that somehow "talent" means playing with the smallest amount of gear possible."

I'm so sick of people constantly singling out jazz musicians as snobs. I have never heard anybody here refer to people as being rock or metal snobs. It's always jazz just getting singled out, and if you think there aren't any rock or metal snobs then you live in a fantasy world.

I came here because I love discussing music, especially with other musicians. Yes, jazz is my favorite, but there are a lot of other styles I enjoy as well, and I love to talk about them with other musicians. However, there's just such a negative vibe towards jazz musicians and I don't understand why.

BTW I'll shatter the above quote with two words: Louie Bellson. Louie often used a very large kit and was the nicest musician I ever met, hands down.
This issue has been discussed many times on this forum and i for one have noticed things in some threads and heated debates always seem to kick off around jazz drummers. A few (not all) that i have seen, have tried to imply that some drumming (metal especially) is just all bash bash loud nonsense with no feel and i don't agree with that. I certainly don't want to start a war here so any jazz players, please don't think i am singling you out here because i said 'some' not 'all'. I think because jazz is so isolated as a genre (as it doesn't tend to creep in a lot of other forms of drumming but on a technical level could dramatically improve any style!) drummers who have been brought up in that environment find it harder to appreciate other 'simpler' forms of drumming but again this is only 'some' not 'all'. But i have been on this forum a long time, certainly longer than most of you and i have observed things but have kept quiet. I do find there isn't as much of it now than there used to be though but things still happen from time to time and i have seen the jazz drummer both the victim and the offender.
 

JT1

Silver Member
Welcome to the world of illusion.... the internet.

Well i'm a veteran jazz musician and i'm no jazz snob by any stretch of the imagination and have been a long time contributor to this forum. What i've seen here is the trolls {one in particular} that sit on the fence and who's opinion changes like the daily winds that try and change everything around that the contributing square up non bitter working professional jazz players have to say on any jazz subject that comes up to the point where nobody has a clue anymore regarding any point in these jazz discussion what the original intent was to try and get across and convey.

The agenda heavy behind the scenes name without face {or hiding under a alias here} try to make the honest straight up jazz folk look bad or manipulate their words for whatever reasons only known to their unhappy state of affairs to try and derail any healthy jazz discussions or try to taint their comments given by such straight shooting members in a bad light. Seen this here MANY times.....sadly. Further noted if said troll finds out your a endorser of any products the level of spite towards such jazz players is bumped up even a further misguided bitter notch trying to create a false level of deceit amd mistrust in said individuals regarding their contributions and comments.

These are all is part of the problem and my attitude at this point is just get out a play the music and ignore the internet " noise" like I did tonight at a great acoustic jazz quartet show of original music.... THAT"s where the REAL stuff happens. Talk is cheap ...actions SPEAK volumes in REAL LIFE.

Shut the computer off and play the music and let it speak for itself or even better yet get out and hear it live by people who love it with a passion {without a hidden agenda} just like any other music to experience in life is my advice.....
Yes I see this also.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
My view of jazz (and other styles) can be seen in my YouTube Favourites

To me, the musical world is a garden full of fruit trees, any of which we can pick from if we choose. Some just like one or two types of "fruit", which is fine as long as they don't dump on people who like other types.
That's almost ethical!
 

Bernhard

Founder Drummerworld
Staff member
Yes i know what Jazz-Snobs are!!!!

They live here in Switzerland too in my little town. They complain about everything, that's not played exactly in style and is newer than 50 years. The are called Jazz Police....and they are even writing reviews in newspapers, like: how awful Lewis Nash was, playing so flashy with his brushes and Steve Gadd daring to rockify some standard tunes.

They all love Guitarists like Freddy Green and his wonderful harmonies and hate newcomers like John Scofield, who seems not beeing able to tune his guitar.

Normally they are dressed all in black and you recognice them and their beautiful wifes always very quick, when clapping to a swing tune in contre pulse.

B.
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Yes i know what Jazz-Snobs are!!!!

They live here in Switzerland too in my little town. They complain about everything, that's not played exactly in style and is newer than 50 years. The are called Jazz Police....and they are even writing reviews in newspapers, like: how awful Lewis Nash was, playing so flashy with his brushes and Steve Gadd daring to rockify some standard tunes.

They all love Guitarists like Freddy Green and his wonderful harmonies and hate newcomers like John Scofield, who seems not beeing able to tune his guitar.

Normally they are dressed all in black and you recognice them and their beautiful wifes always very quick, when clapping to a swing tune in contre pulse.

B.
Agreed Bernhard, there's a couple in my little town too. I had words with them just the other week for openly dissing a trio of very young players at their first gig. Discraceful!! That said, I've met rock snobs as well. The real point is, thankfully, I don't get much sense of overt snobbery on this forum, as was the contention of the original post.
 

Filacterua

Senior Member
It's funny that I should run into this. I was just going to post this epic thread about how I am and have always been a metal head, but secretly wanting to properly learn jazz drumming. Furthermore, in order to give folks a general sense of my need for direction within the treacherous waters of jazz music and history, I was going to write stuff like "I cannot understand Miles Davis' music at all" or even more insulting (to some) "I was never able to understand what made Max Roach so great" and just brace for impact... You know, wait for the rain to fall or the S$%^ to hit the fan. Hopefully, some compassionate soul like Stan or Jeff would pitch in and show some mercy and direction...

Carry on...
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
I've never picked up any kind of anti jazz vibe. Some of the best guys on here are jazz guys, and very gracious. I'd have to say that if there's anything I picked up on a vibe, it

would be concerning metal. For instance, (commenting on a video of someone playing metal) "it's not my preferred style, but you played it good" That is not an anti metal

statement, but it's the closest thing to a "vibe" I pick up on.
Anti jazz is anti music. This place is not anti music for Pete's sake.
 
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TheArchitect

Guest
Another take on this is that many people don't bother with that investment because they don't see the value in it, usually because they don't care for the genre, or just see it as irrelevant and dead.

Many people see those that are so technique oriented as lacking in playing personality. They don't want to be lectured to on issues of technique by those they see as having sold their creative souls (if ever there was one to be sold) for excessive technical proficiency.
I'm sure many see it that way but I have never understood how anyone can justify not investing the time to develop their craft. That is a genre independent concept.
 

Thaard

Platinum Member
Jazz-snobs, metal-snobs, ska-snobs or whatever, belongs to a bigger group of people called purists. These dingbats go mental if you even deviate a little from the beat on the record or dvd. I´ve had to deal with two of these in my playalong videos on youtube. They always complain about how I did not play the exact beat or if I put a solo in there. Seems like they hate creativity. Most of them haven´t got any videos to show for themselves either, and some of them are also so-called "competitive musicians". Those people in the crowd that stands with their hands crossed and inspect every detail to find faults in your playing.

Like the guitarist in my band said "purists make life boring".
 

Garvin

Pioneer Member
Ha, I knew it! Day 2, page 2... And the real arguing hasn't even started yet.

I'm of the Steamer-school of thought that talk is cheap.

If you can play, play. I don't care what genre it is. I'm impressed by musicians who make good music, not those who espouse philosophy to excuse their shortcomings when it comes to musicianship.
 

MisterMixelpix

Silver Member
Let me draw an analogy.

I'm a Linux user, and Linux users have this reputation for being computer snob nerds who laugh derisively at anyone that doesn't use Linux. Reason being, you only really notice someone uses it WHEN they are obnoxious about it. Point being, it's possible that the "anti-Jazz" folk are only consciously aware that someone is a jazz person when they're saying/doing something that's rather snobby.

At the same time, people are pretty protective of their own tastes, so if you have someone that idolizes metal drummers with gigantic sets and then some jazz guy goes "Well so and so only had a four piece and he was one of the best ever", that metal drummer is going to take some offense and be tilted against jazz guys.

And, granted, the big reason that jazz guy likely said that in the first place was that all the praise heaped on the metal drummer struck him as a threat to his opinion that you don't need an elaborate set to be an amazing drummer. :)

Just some thoughts. Take 'em or leave 'em.
 

eddiehimself

Platinum Member
A lot of people just say "I haven't noticed anything like that". Well, it's real easy not to notice it when you're not a jazz musician. However, I have grown quite tired of this constant label of snobbery being thrown at jazz musicians. Like in a different thread I was reading earlier when somebody said "We're not all jazz snobs who think that drumming has to have rules and regulations and that somehow "talent" means playing with the smallest amount of gear possible."
There is nothing wrong with jazz, the reason i said that was because i'm sick of people who think that they're better at drumming than everybody else just because they have a small kit and think that somehow having a big kit makes you inferior in some way, shape or form. Yes, i realise that "jazz snob" is perhaps not the right term for it, perhaps "drum snob" or "gear snob" would have been a better phrase? I just think some drummers need to stop treating drums like some sort of sport where you're not allowed to deviate from the rules whatsoever, if it works for you then go with it i say. I think that's probably about as far removed from "anti-jazz" as possible.
 

MisterMixelpix

Silver Member
I will say, though, that as a musical style I just don't get jazz. Don't understand it whatsoever. I respect the best players, but I can't listen to it.
 

Filacterua

Senior Member
I've been playing hard rock and metal for 15 years. I once recorded with a six piece kit and the engineer noticed I never hit the 16 tom. Not once. I then decided to go back to 5 piece kits with only a double pedal.

Furthermore, you will notice an increasing number of metal guys nowadays do their gigs with 4 piece kits. I know I'm doing it - much less to carry and brings my ride so much closer...(yes, I use a ride - heck, in my large kit I use TWO!!!).

I also like Elvin Jones and Art Blakey, although I don't always understand what they are doing. Papa Jo Jones is a blast to watch. However, after 15 years of secretly studying jazz only last week someone actually told me that the ride cymbal should be the loudest voice on the kit. Go figure! I just wish I had had access to that one tiny crumb of practical advice instead of getting all the preaching about listening to every documented piece of jazz history known to man.

Yes, I'm ranting...
 
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TFITTING942

Guest
I will say, though, that as a musical style I just don't get jazz. Don't understand it whatsoever. I respect the best players, but I can't listen to it.
Me too. It has always sounded like five guys tuning their instruments at the same time. I respect the players ability, I just dont like the genre.

I really don't see an anti jazz vibe on this forum, it is more of a stand up and shout "I play jazz" at every oppertunity. I could care less what type of music people want to play or be associated with, for me it comes down to the ability of the individual. It just seems the jazz guys make sure everyone knows that they are jazz guys.
 
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TheArchitect

Guest
Me too. It has always sounded like five guys tuning their instruments at the same time. I respect the players ability, I just dont like the genre.

I really don't see an anti jazz vibe on this forum, it is more of a stand up and shout "I play jazz" at every oppertunity. I could care less what type of music people want to play or be associated with, for me it comes down to the ability of the individual. It just seems the jazz guys make sure everyone knows that they are jazz guys.
Again, you have to understand it to appreciate it. If you think it sounds like guys tuning up then you have missed a few steps.
 
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