Why Is There Such An Anti-Jazz Vibe Here?

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TheArchitect

Guest
True ccsimms, but my question isn't why jazz discussions turn into heated arguments. My question is why do people constantly stereotype jazz musicians as being snobs?
Because generally they in fact often are more musically educated/trained than most of their peers. Education often = snob to those who have never bothered to make that investment.

Flame away but it is very often the case
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
Because generally they in fact often are more musically educated/trained than most of their peers. Education often = snob to those who have never bothered to make that investment.
Another take on this is that many people don't bother with that investment because they don't see the value in it, usually because they don't care for the genre, or just see it as irrelevant and dead.

Many people see those that are so technique oriented as lacking in playing personality. They don't want to be lectured to on issues of technique by those they see as having sold their creative souls (if ever there was one to be sold) for excessive technical proficiency.
 

DrumEatDrum

Platinum Member
I think the real question is why people are so bothered by a few off hand comments made online.

This is a pretty mellow and drama free message board compared to most boards I've been been on (musical or otherwise).
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
I'm 53, playing since 8 years old. My drumming has included every style you can think of, including jazz. In an ideal world, jazz would be my preferred genre. I've done big-band gigs, combo gigs and duo gigs with a pianist. I've also done tons of rock, top 40, weddings, etc.

I've only been here for a couple of months, but must say I haven't noticed any negative vibe towards jazz players. In fact, I've participated in threads where jazz players were discussed as favorite drummers, bassists, etc. I've seen plenty of jazz players mentioned in positive light. You seem kinda angry about it, but, its like anything else. Take it for what it is. Its a public forum. People will say what they will, and you're not going to agree with everything or how its stated.

Its supposed to be a fun thing. I'm enjoying it. If you don't have a good time here, well, you know what to do...
I wasn't saying that there haven't been positive comments about jazz musicians, just that this snobbery label keeps getting thrown at jazz musicians. Like I said earlier, I've seen the term "jazz snob" used quite a bit, but I've never seen anybody use the term "rock snob" or "metal snob". I'm just venting my feelings on the subject and at the same time asking the question about why the whole snob thing seems to be singled out to jazz.

Another take on this is that many people don't bother with that investment because they don't see the value in it, usually because they don't care for the genre, or just see it as irrelevant and dead.

Many people see those that are so technique oriented as lacking in playing personality. They don't want to be lectured to on issues of technique by those they see as having sold their creative souls (if ever there was one to be sold) for excessive technical proficiency.
Yes, the "more technique = less soul" belief was something that some people had complained about here just recently and I agree that it does play a role as far as people's opinions of the music/musicians. I've never understood the whole "technique vs. soul" debate. I think if a person's playing lacks soul it has nothing to do with how much or how little technique they have. A lack of soul in one's playing is what it is. Technique has no part in it. I mean, look at musicians like Rodrigo y Gabriela. They have incredible technique and I don't anyone who would say that their playing lacks soul.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
I wasn't saying that there haven't been positive comments about jazz musicians, just that this snobbery label keeps getting thrown at jazz musicians. Like I said earlier, I've seen the term "jazz snob" used quite a bit, but I've never seen anybody use the term "rock snob" or "metal snob". I'm just venting my feelings on the subject and at the same time asking the question about why the whole snob thing seems to be singled out to jazz.
So you have seen positive comments about jazz musicians. That's good, right?

The reason that the "snob thing" seems to be singled out to jazz is because, as I said earlier, there is a handfull of "jazz drummers" here who do indeed come across as being snobbish, as if "their" music is the be-all end-all and the rest of us are the great unwashed or something.

As a jazz drummer you could do a lot to change that by posting freely about your drumming and at the same time keeping an open mind about how people respond to your posts rather than getting indignant and accusatory.

Look, maybe there's something really special about jazz and maybe there's not. But it's all too easy to start thinking that jazz drummers are just being a little too precious when they keep on crying crocodile tears about how misunderstood or mistreated they are. Surely you can see that.
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
So you have seen positive comments about jazz musicians. That's good, right?

The reason that the "snob thing" seems to be singled out to jazz is because, as I said earlier, there is a handfull of "jazz drummers" here who do indeed come across as being snobbish, as if "their" music is the be-all end-all and the rest of us are the great unwashed or something.

As a jazz drummer you could do a lot to change that by posting freely about your drumming and at the same time keeping an open mind about how people respond to your posts rather than getting indignant and accusatory.

Look, maybe there's something really special about jazz and maybe there's not. But it's all too easy to start thinking that jazz drummers are just being a little too precious when they keep on crying crocodile tears about how misunderstood or mistreated they are. Surely you can see that.
Well, at the same time I find it hard to believe that there haven't been members who play other genres of music with that same attitude. I'm not being indignant or accusatory. I'm just saying how I feel. Just because I'm replying to people's posts doesn't mean I'm being indignant or accusatory. It is, after all, a discussion. I enjoy discussing this with other members, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it to begin with.

Do I think there is something really special about jazz? I think a better way of putting it would be that I think there's something really special about music in general.

I don't know where I said that I've never seen positive comments about jazz musicians. What I did say was that I haven't seen the snob label attached to other genres of music on here, and that it seems to be strictly limited to jazz for some reason. That's something that you're choosing to read into it. It's like saying that because I said that a sports team is not a good team that means I said there are no good players on that team. You can have individual players having a great season and not have a good team. It's the same thing here. Just because I feel that a snob label is unfairly put on jazz musicians doesn't mean that I'm saying that there are no positive comments about jazz/jazz musicians on here.
 
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con struct

Platinum Member
I don't know where I said that I've never seen positive comments about jazz musicians.

(snip)

Just because I feel that a snob label is unfairly put on jazz musicians doesn't mean that I'm saying that there are no positive comments about jazz/jazz musicians on here.
I'm not saying that you haven't seen positive comments about jazz drummers here. I've seen quite a few of them here, and that's good, isn't it? Take the good and throw away the bad. Myself, I have a great deal of respect for jazz and for the musicians, particularly the drummers, who play it.

I respect and admire all musicians who play well and who produce good music.

Edit: I don't dismiss what you're saying. You obviously feel very strongly about this. But why? What do you care, when it comes right down to it, what the members of the Drummerword discussion forum have to say about jazz? This is what I don't get.
 
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Michael McDanial

Senior Member
I'm not saying that you haven't seen positive comments about jazz drummers here. I've seen quite a few of them here, and that's good, isn't it? Take the good and throw away the bad. Myself, I have a great deal of respect for jazz and for the musicians, particularly the drummers, who play it.
Like I said, I was just voicing a frustration here. Nothing more, nothing less. Just because I'm doing that doesn't mean that I am some sort of bitter person who never looks at the good side of things. Is there some sort of unwritten rule about not being able to post something like that? Don't you ever get frustrated by something? Of course you do. We all do. Honestly, I feel like letting out your frustrations is much better than keeping them inside. I certainly feel a lot better just from discussing this with everybody that has posted here, whether they agree with me or not. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I like hearing everybody else's opinions. Sometimes it's just good to talk about these things. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
 

con struct

Platinum Member
Like I said, I was just voicing a frustration here. Nothing more, nothing less. Just because I'm doing that doesn't mean that I am some sort of bitter person who never looks at the good side of things. Is there some sort of unwritten rule about not being able to post something like that? Don't you ever get frustrated by something? Of course you do. We all do. Honestly, I feel like letting out your frustrations is much better than keeping them inside. I certainly feel a lot better just from discussing this with everybody that has posted here, whether they agree with me or not. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I like hearing everybody else's opinions. Sometimes it's just good to talk about these things. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
What's wrong, in my little old opinion, is taking to heart anything that is said on a discussion forum like this one. See, being frustrated by anyone's opinion is generally seen as a sign of vulnerability. Why be vulnerable to what anyone, I mean anyone, has to say about jazz musicians? You yourself are a jazz musician, no? So you know that none of what people say about jazz musicians being snobs is true, no?

So let it go, man. Let it go. Keep playing all that wonderful music, and be proud.
 

Michael McDanial

Senior Member
What's wrong, in my little old opinion, is taking to heart anything that is said on a discussion forum like this one. See, being frustrated by anyone's opinion is generally seen as a sign of vulnerability. Why be vulnerable to what anyone, I mean anyone, has to say about jazz musicians? You yourself are a jazz musician, no? So you know that none of what people say about jazz musicians being snobs is true, no?

So let it go, man. Let it go. Keep playing all that wonderful music, and be proud.
You're reading way too much into this. I don't lose sleep at night over it. I just felt like saying something, that's all. As I said before, there are always going to be times when we have things that bother us because we are all humans and we all have emotions and I was simply giving my opinion on how I felt. So stop treating me like I'm this rabid, angry person who sits up all night grinding his teeth in frustration over it. I'm not. You've given your opinion and I've given mine. That's all there is to it.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
You're reading way too much into this. I don't lose sleep at night over it. I just felt like saying something, that's all. As I said before, there are always going to be times when we have things that bother us because we are all humans and we all have emotions and I was simply giving my opinion on how I felt. So stop treating me like I'm this rabid, angry person who sits up all night grinding his teeth in frustration over it. I'm not. You've given your opinion and I've given mine. That's all there is to it.
Alright, fair enough, but not all that long ago you said this:

"You shouldn't let things that other people say get to you. However, this is a community and a lot of people make friends here, even if only over the internet, and it can cause them to be more sensitive, and I understand that. Of course, if it's not one of your friends here, you shouldn't let it bother you.

Sometimes you're going to get in heated arguments, but you should really just let it go. If it;s one of your friends, talk it over through PM's and work it out."

So...
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
Welcome to the world of illusion.... the internet.

Well i'm a veteran jazz musician and i'm no jazz snob by any stretch of the imagination and have been a long time contributor to this forum. What i've seen here is the trolls {one in particular} that sit on the fence and who's opinion changes like the daily winds that try and change everything around that the contributing square up non bitter working professional jazz players have to say on any jazz subject that comes up to the point where nobody has a clue anymore regarding any point in these jazz discussion what the original intent was to try and get across and convey.

The agenda heavy behind the scenes name without face {or hiding under a alias here} try to make the honest straight up jazz folk look bad or manipulate their words for whatever reasons only known to their unhappy state of affairs to try and derail any healthy jazz discussions or try to taint their comments given by such straight shooting members in a bad light. Seen this here MANY times.....sadly. Further noted if said troll finds out your a endorser of any products the level of spite towards such jazz players is bumped up even a further misguided bitter notch trying to create a false level of deceit amd mistrust in said individuals regarding their contributions and comments.

These are all is part of the problem and my attitude at this point is just get out a play the music and ignore the internet " noise" like I did tonight at a great acoustic jazz quartet show of original music.... THAT"s where the REAL stuff happens. Talk is cheap ...actions SPEAK volumes in REAL LIFE.

Shut the computer off and play the music and let it speak for itself or even better yet get out and hear it live by people who love it with a passion {without a hidden agenda} just like any other music to experience in life is my advice.....
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
I know some real-life jazz snobs. Whoever is bashing people on here for being one of them: believe me, they're nothing compared to the real thing, and your bashing is doing nothing but isolating yourself from the rational-thinking open-minded majority of folks that frequent this forum...

I'm not singling anyone out because;
1. That would be pointless and counter-productive to the intentions of this forum
2. I would be lowering myself to their level
3. It might get me booted off the forum
4. I can't actually think of anyone who's actually doing this on Drummerworld.
 

Swiss Matthias

Platinum Member
Many people see those that are so technique oriented as lacking in playing personality. They don't want to be lectured to on issues of technique by those they see as having sold their creative souls (if ever there was one to be sold) for excessive technical proficiency.
Somewhat strange to see a comment about technique-orientedness in a jazz thread. I'm a musician who loves different kinds of styles (as are many drummers), and I'm also trying to learn as much as I can in jazz playing. One thing I definitely learned: Jazz is all about groove, interaction, improvisation and musical expression. If this includes technical facility; fine. But what music doesn't?
In general, as has been discussed before in this forum, I also see a bit of an anti-technique vibe here, which is kind of ridiculous: Look at instruments like the violin, the trombone, the trumpet - or should I say virtually all instruments - you aren't getting nuttin' without technique! Technique is a completely normal part of playing music, for serious players that is. Sorry for the off-topic.
 

madgolfer

Senior Member
50,000 children just died of hunger in the time it took everyone to grumble about all this. Get angry at something that deserves your anger.
 

Skulmoski

Gold Member
A lot of people just say "I haven't noticed anything like that". Well, it's real easy not to notice it when you're not a jazz musician. However, I have grown quite tired of this constant label of snobbery being thrown at jazz musicians.
I have not picked up on the theme of "jazz snobbery" here. Maybe I am in the Gear section too much!

I generally don't listen to jazz even though I greatly admire many jazz drummers (e.g. Buddy Rich playing brushes!) When I want to hear something jazzy, I reach for the Saint-Germain-des-Pres-Cafe series of disks. One of my best friends is a very competent jazz drummer here in Abu Dhabi and there is no snobbery in him. He is very humble and accepting.

GJS
 
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