Why does everyone love Zildjian?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sterfry95

Member
I do agree with Dennis here a bit. I bring this particular post up because for some reason, regardless of how different we all feel towards different cymbals from different manufacturers, I have to say that I think Zildjian laid down that "base sound" that every cymbal gets compared to, decades ago. If all the manufacturers were so different, why is it on every recording I listen to, I can't tell whose cymbals they are? Like drums, it all sounds a bit generic. Cymbals ride, crash, and hats are tight or sloshy, regardless of who made them. Bozzio again comes to mind for interesting uses for his china cymbals, as does Steve Jordan for experimenting with large hi-hats, but those are the only two that kinda' come away with a different sound. Maybe Billy Ward by putting thin cymbals against his big rides to get this crunchy sound (Bozzio had already done this too), but leave the cymbals alone and they all tend to sound alike. Or is it me? Pick a favorite album (preferably newer when we know there are many different cymbal brands) and tell me if you can tell who made the cymbals. It's like photographers and name-brand lenses - after you see the image, how can you tell what he used?

We can be loyal to our favorites, but in the end, I doubt anyone listening cares ;)
I agree with the recording thing, but as far as live sound goes that's a completely different topic. You can tell many distinctions even if an artist just switches series, he doesn't even have to change companies for a completely different live sound. In studio you won't notice but live you certainly will.
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
I love 60's ones my dad has a 22" sizzle ride from the 60's. It's amazing. But I know over the years they changed their formula (70's was the big change) and to me you can't even compare the vintage to new ones.
Um...where did you hear that their formula changed?

Hand hammered cymbals usually last longer.
Um...where did you hear that?

You do know that HH for Sabian stands for "Hand Hammered" Series right?
Um...yeah, but they don't actually take a hammer in their hand to "hand hammer" the cymbals. More like they "hand guide" a cymbal underneath a hammering machine...
 

Sterfry95

Member
I know a few drummers from the 70's who played Zildjian. They bought new Zildjian's and they broke in the first weeks and sounded different when they actually worked. Said drummers called the company about the breaks, they were compensated and told that Zildjian was using a new formula. And hand hammered just does last longer than machine made. If you get actual hand hammered ones that is. They are stronger and usually heavier, Paiste RUDE is a perfect example. Its all one solid piece.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
I know a few drummers from the 70's who played Zildjian. They bought new Zildjian's and they broke in the first weeks and sounded different when they actually worked. Said drummers called the company about the breaks, they were compensated and told that Zildjian was using a new formula. And hand hammered just does last longer than machine made. If you get actual hand hammered ones that is. They are stronger and usually heavier, Paiste RUDE is a perfect example. Its all one solid piece.

OK, all this is all anecdotal, not fact. You are just saying what you think, no evidence.
All cymbals, not just RUDEs are "one solid piece" to most folks.
"I know a few drummers" too... who would contradict everything you are saying in this thread.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
I'll bet you London to a brick not a single hand held hammer has ever been within bulls roar of a Paiste RUDE.

Besides the fact that all cymbals are "one solid piece"....that goes for cast B20 (like high end Zildjian) or sheet B8 (like low end Zildjian....and dare I say, Paiste RUDES, 2002's and Giant Beat).
 

Sterfry95

Member
I'll bet you London to a brick not a single hand held hammer has ever been within bulls roar of a Paiste RUDE.

Besides the fact that all cymbals are "one solid piece"....that goes for cast B20 (like high end Zildjian) or sheet B8 (like low end Zildjian....and dare I say, Paiste RUDES, 2002's and Giant Beat).
RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it. Paiste 2002 and RUDE are handmade and hand hammered not just finish wise either. It's what separates Paiste from others and their increasing popularity leads to countless small European companies following in their foot steps of hand made cymbals. Paiste's B8 formula is much different than a Sabain B8 or Zildjian SHEET Bronze. Paiste uses CAST much more durable than an entry level cymbal. Zildjians hi end is all cast bronze too so whats the difference between Paiste and Zildjian? Hand made quality, it's the same thing that makes a Gibson a Gibson and why they are on top of the guitar world, the product quality they produce by hand making their guitars.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it. Paiste 2002 and RUDE are handmade and hand hammered not just finish wise either. It's what separates Paiste from others and their increasing popularity leads to countless small European companies following in their foot steps of hand made cymbals. Paiste's B8 formula is much different than a Sabain B8 or Zildjian SHEET Bronze. Paiste uses CAST much more durable than an entry level cymbal. Zildjians hi end is all cast bronze too so whats the difference between Paiste and Zildjian? Hand made quality, it's the same thing that makes a Gibson a Gibson and why they are on top of the guitar world, the product quality they produce by hand making their guitars.
I think I should point out to you that no one is forcing you to purchase a Zildjian cymbal.

How much money do you spend on cymbals a year, on average I mean?
 

MikeM

Platinum Member
RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it. Paiste 2002 and RUDE are handmade and hand hammered not just finish wise either. It's what separates Paiste from others and their increasing popularity ...
Seems pretty clear to me after reading through this thread that you really don't know what you're talking about. There's nothing wrong with not understanding the differences in manufacturing between one cymbal type and the next, but to carry on so belligerently about it is a little unusual.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable drummers here (more than you think) so you'd be wise to ask more than you assert at this stage in your evolving knowledge.

For example, what's the difference between an integrated and non-integrated bell? How does that apply to a cymbal being "truly" one piece of metal (or not). Just curious to see where your coming from on this one.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it.
So a Zildjian A or Sabian AA is two pieces of metal? Or what about a Zildjian Z....they were unlathed?

Paiste 2002 and RUDE are handmade and hand hammered not just finish wise either.
Check the hammering patterns....that's some serious hammer control......almost machine like in its precision, I'd argue. They are about as hand hammered as a modern Zildjian K.

Paiste's B8 formula is much different than a Sabain B8 or Zildjian SHEET Bronze. Paiste uses CAST much more durable than an entry level cymbal.
How many formulas can there be to denote 8% tin? Paiste uses sheet B8 for their 2002, Giant Beat and RUDE's.....it's the work that goes into that B8 that separates them from the rest.
 

wildbill

Platinum Member
Besides the objective factors in how we view companies and their products, there's also a lot of subjective, psychological and emotional factors.

Some people think, I want to be unique, so I won't use anything popular.
Some don't like a company that has major market share.
Some don't like a company with a long history.
Some like the underdog.
Some rationalize their beliefs with hearsay or assumptions.
Some are defensive, when their choices are questioned.

I could go on, but you get the idea.
 

Sterfry95

Member
I think I should point out to you that no one is forcing you to purchase a Zildjian cymbal.

How much money do you spend on cymbals a year, on average I mean?
I haven't bought a new cymbal since I switched to Paiste a year and a half ago (switched to give hand hammered cymbals a try). I went through like 4 Zildjian's (A's and A Customs) with cracking at the bell. And I don't even hit hard (you can see by my video I don't)! I bought all my 2002's and RUDE's used so I don't even know how the person before me treated them. And I haven't had one of them break on me, or even show any sign of wear what so ever. I ever tried Sabian to the same result as the Zildjian's.
 

con struct

Platinum Member
I haven't bought a new cymbal since I switched to Paiste a year and a half ago (switched to give hand hammered cymbals a try). I went through like 4 Zildjian's (A's and A Customs) with cracking at the bell. And I don't even hit hard (you can see by my video I don't)! I bought all my 2002's and RUDE's used so I don't even know how the person before me treated them. And I haven't had one of them break on me, or even show any sign of wear what so ever. I ever tried Sabian to the same result as the Zildjian's.
Okay, here's the big big question. Who actually paid for those Paistes you switched to a year and a half ago?
 

FlamFlamMan

Senior Member
the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it.
Huh?? This has nothing to do with a cymbal being "one piece of metal."

An integrated bell, as I understand it, means that the bell is such that when you play the bell the whole cymbal responds and it sounds like an amplified version of the cymbal's regular ping. Probably like most of your crash cymbals.

A separated bell (like most ride cymbals) will produce a different, more defined pitch than the rest of the cymbal.
 

Sterfry95

Member
Check the hammering patterns....that's some serious hammer control......almost machine like in its precision, I'd argue. They are about as hand hammered as a modern Zildjian K.


How many formulas can there be to denote 8% tin? Paiste uses sheet B8 for their 2002, Giant Beat and RUDE's.....it's the work that goes into that B8 that separates them from the rest.
Two, they use cast B8 not sheet already said that. Cast is much stronger. And if you look up RUDE cymbals side by side you'll see they aren't hammered in the same area's so I don't know where you're getting the "machine precision" from. The way the hammering is done is called the RUDE finish, it's like that for a reason. It's also used on the 2002 Wild Series in some cases, same thing with Innovations and Dimensions.
 

opentune

Platinum Member
"RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it."

False - RUDEs and HH's are painstakingly hammered by hand
False - many/most cymbals are not 'truly one piece of metal'
True - 1995 is your birth year.
 

FlamFlamMan

Senior Member
Okay, here's the big big question. Who actually paid for those Paistes you switched to a year and a half ago?
Your not insinuating he's sponsored are you? Judging by his youtube video, I would guess his parents.

I like the hat though!

Edit: Missed it, sorry. Good for you if you work for your gear!
 

Sterfry95

Member
"RUDE doesn't even have lathing and the bell isn't integrated so it is truly one piece of metal and that's it."

False - RUDEs and HH's are painstakingly hammered by hand
False - many/most cymbals are not 'truly one piece of metal'
I said HH's are and the same with RUDE's. And as for the metal thing I said RUDE's and Paiste's are generally one piece.
 

Pocket-full-of-gold

Platinum Member
Two, they use cast B8 not sheet already said that. Cast is much stronger. And if you look up RUDE cymbals side by side you'll see they aren't hammered in the same area's so I don't know where you're getting the "machine precision" from. The way the hammering is done is called the RUDE finish, it's like that for a reason. It's also used on the 2002 Wild Series in some cases, same thing with Innovations and Dimensions.
You need some further schooling on cymbal manufacturing mate. It's all here on DW already....put yer feet up and get to it.

I'm not claiming to be an expert on cymbalsmithing by any means, but what you've been spouting pretty much since this threads inception just flies in the face of everything I've ever read, discussed or been taught.

At best you're clutching at straws, at worst you're just making it up as you go along. Either way, it's time to either cite some facts (and not made up ones "like some guys in the 70's") or do some homework. I'll leave it to you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top