which shell?

Drum_Muffin

Active member
No bad at all :) It's just exchange of opinion, & that's to be encouraged.

I base my observations on testing shells / constructions - lots of them. Of course, I take wider evidence into account, but I've lost count of how many "facts" I've disproven through A-B testing, & the magnitude of influence attributed to most glues in shell constructions is one of them.

I am happy that you reference one of our drum constructions in your segmented shell link though, so all is good (y)
:)

Can you please tell me which drum brand are you involved with?
 

Drum_Muffin

Active member
Yes, why do you say that? Do you have any data to back up your claim?

The video you posted seems to me contradicts your point.
I don't have any scientific proof to back up my claim.
But I have 2 ears.
The video I posted clearly shows that ply shells don't sound like solid wood shells.
The sound is right in the middle between wood and metal shells.

I have to say that Inde made a remarkable job with those thin highly resonant shells.
Still, it's an insult to solid wood drum builders putting them in the same category with ply shell makers, with all due respect to Inde (I have only kind words for them)

Yes, why do you say that?
There's a whole paragraph explaining why... or you can read articles on my website.


Like I said for at least 10 times now, I don't blame people who like the sound of ply drums. I like it too. But compared to solid wood drums you hear a difference that you like or you don't. If I could choose, I'd prefer solid wood drums.

Here's a link to my website where you can find a few articles explaining various things about drums. No scientific data.
www.mydrum.net
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
Holly s**t!!
Wasn't "Keep it simple" the guy working at Guru?
I haven't been online for almost a year now. I'm not aware of what is going on in the forum.
I left the forum for a while for various reasons, and came back under my own name. I was the main owner, designer, & builder at Guru Drums until I took the decision to close last year due to health reasons.

I have 2 ears.
The video I posted clearly shows that ply shells don't sound like solid wood shells.
The differences you're hearing are almost 100% due to construction, mass, rigidity, etc. The amount of glue used, or the frequency of it's application, in itself, is close to irrelevant.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
:)

Can you please tell me which drum brand are you involved with?
I don't know why I found this so satisfying but I did.

Full disclosure, I'm way biased. I love the segmented shell.

Guru and SOTA are the only segmented shells I am aware of. I was not even aware of segmented construction until Andy started making them in what 2014? Then Doug (Vintage Old School) let us all know about SOTA (state of the art) drums he owns. (segmented construction as well) There's not a lot to research to do on segmented construction as far as I know. In my mind, Andy is THE source of knowledge there. He personally did the extensive R&D and believe me when I tell you, Andy is a world class engineer.

I have to think the whole glue thing is negligible too. As a guess, I would say that the segmented drums have even less glue remaining on the shell than a steambent, after all is said and done. Staves probably use even less glue than segmented but not a lot and it could even be more if there are thick staves. It's a non issue anyway IMO, the glue on a solid shell. It's what, a few molecules thick?

When I read that a segmented shell can't vibrate...oh boy, my hackles were raised. That's just wrong and maybe should be taken out. It's bad info. I own 12 segmented and 6 steambent drums. The segmented drums most definitely vibrate. I've owned hollow log construction (Canopus Zelkova) which to my ear performs like stave. I sold it. I prefer segmented to steambent and stave for that matter. Segmented is a wonderful construction because the wood is not under tension and to my ear sounds "wetter" than a stave shell...which to me sounds dryer and shorter of note. Which is great for lots of needs but not my cup of tea personally. Steambent used to be my first choice before I learned of segmented, but now steambent is my second choice followed by a toss-up between stave and ply. I love all drums including stave and ply, but if I had my choice, I'll take the segmented drums everyday. They satisfy me completely.

I would love to find a builder of segmented shells again.

Anyone know of any segmented shell builders?
 

dboomer

Senior Member
I don't have any scientific proof to back up my claim.
But I have 2 ears.
The video I posted clearly shows that ply shells don't sound like solid wood shells.
You are certainly entitled to your “opinion” but that does not make it fact.

The video only shows that 3 different shells sound different and not that ply doesn’t sound like solid. But somehow it looks like you took that to mean glue. I suspect the majority of difference between those examples is their relative mass. Correlation is not causation.
 

dboomer

Senior Member
Once again, a work of fantasy and not fact. You seem to have missed those factors that are many orders of magnitude more important in the sound/tone of a drum.

You are not doing anyone any favors by spreading such misinformation.
 

CompactDrums

Silver Member
First of all, I need to say that I'm really pleased to have this conversation with a person who obviously knows what is talking about.
:)
I understand that a drum vibrates as a whole. But this is a topic only about drum shells. Not about fully built drums.

I see that the word "glue" got you triggered.
I'm not sure why you deny the bad effect of glue on resonance since this is a longlasting problem from guitars, loudspeaker boxes, to drums. But ok... people warp their drums in plastic veneers and still try to make buyers believe that it doesn't affect the sound.

Still, I'm not blaming only the glue volume, as I tried to explain in my articles, there are other numerous factors involved. Maybe I wasn't able to make that clear enough. My bad.

LOL... Do you have any idea who you're attempting to educate? "I'm not sure why you deny the bad effect of glue on resonance since this is a longlasting problem from guitars, loudspeaker boxes, to drums." -He explained, in detail exactly why PVA has little or no effect.

I manufacture drum wrap. I agree that wrapping a shell will affect it's sound.... to a degree. However in blind tests NOBODY can tell the difference between a wrapped and unwrapped identical drum. Some people claim to hear a difference, but there are equal amounts that say the wrapped sounds "better" as there are that say the unwrapped sounds "better". I agree that there is a difference. The laws of physics dictate that there will be. However it doesn't seem like human ears can distinguish this difference.... Perhaps it could be increased by a skilled sound engineer though...
 

Andy

Administrator
Staff member
I manufacture drum wrap. I agree that wrapping a shell will affect it's sound.... to a degree. However in blind tests NOBODY can tell the difference between a wrapped and unwrapped identical drum. Some people claim to hear a difference, but there are equal amounts that say the wrapped sounds "better" as there are that say the unwrapped sounds "better". I agree that there is a difference. The laws of physics dictate that there will be. However it doesn't seem like human ears can distinguish this difference.... Perhaps it could be increased by a skilled sound engineer though...
The only time you can appreciably tell the difference a wrap makes is when it's applied to a truly highly resonant construction (i.e. thin high quality shell with ultra low mass hardware). Outside of that scenario, the difference is minimal to non existent.

It's true the application of a wrap can "improve" the response of a drum, but IMHO, only when the the original construction / design of the instrument was sub optimal. An example would be a thin shell fitted with heavy hardware - the drum can actually benefit, in some areas of delivery, from a more appropriate mass balance.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
The only time you can appreciably tell the difference a wrap makes is when it's applied to a truly highly resonant construction (i.e. thin high quality shell with ultra low mass hardware). Outside of that scenario, the difference is minimal to non existent.

It's true the application of a wrap can "improve" the response of a drum, but IMHO, only when the the original construction / design of the instrument was sub optimal. An example would be a thin shell fitted with heavy hardware - the drum can actually benefit, in some areas of delivery, from a more appropriate mass balance.
Your expertise continues to amaze. May you live long and grow ever more knowledgeable about drums.
 

CompactDrums

Silver Member
The only time you can appreciably tell the difference a wrap makes is when it's applied to a truly highly resonant construction (i.e. thin high quality shell with ultra low mass hardware). Outside of that scenario, the difference is minimal to non existent.

It's true the application of a wrap can "improve" the response of a drum, but IMHO, only when the the original construction / design of the instrument was sub optimal. An example would be a thin shell fitted with heavy hardware - the drum can actually benefit, in some areas of delivery, from a more appropriate mass balance.
Your insight is as always appreciated! Makes total sense!
 
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