Watching gig drummers as a learning experience

I think that the trademark of a good drummer is when he/or she is playing some music you don't like but still manages to keep you interested that speaks volumes about their ability being properly applied for the music they are playing.
 
Mr Farkle said:
Watching live (and importantly, up close) is completely different than watching videos. In the age of YouTube, I’m guessing that’s what the instructor is on about. When I see a drummer up close at a gig I get a feel for how they handle things. What they’re looking at, by itself, is a great study. You can’t get that from a video.
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I don't do this but a lot of people do, when filming for YouTube they have multiple camera angles, and they use that to hide mistakes by doing multiple takes.
(I will have multi camera angles but they will only be used to add visual interest).
I believe that if you can't play the song in it's entirety without making mistakes it is ok, after all it is just a cover, but if you are pretending to be this great drummer that plays perfect takes every time (Meytal Cohen) but edits out every mistake then shame on you. Unfortunately that is the majority of YouTube..
Plus a lot of those videos have some constant angle changes that it makes it difficult to see what the drummer is doing sometimes (funny because the whole purpose of those videos is to see what the drummer is doing)...
 
Bozozoid said:
Being able to see advanced local drummers as a beginner cleared SO MANY things I was having problems with. It near catapulted me into advanced beginner.
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I don't think some people give themselves enough credit.
I have seen and heard some "beginners" play better than some so called "Pros" and I have also seen some so called "Pros" be much less than.
I personally don't worry about fitting in anyone's category, just play, have fun and let your playing speak for itself. Haters will be haters no matter how good you get.
 
doggyd69b said:
I don't do this but a lot of people do, when filming for YouTube they have multiple camera angles, and they use that to hide mistakes by doing multiple takes.
(I will have multi camera angles but they will only be used to add visual interest).
I believe that if you can't play the song in it's entirety without making mistakes it is ok, after all it is just a cover, but if you are pretending to be this great drummer that plays perfect takes every time (Meytal Cohen) but edits out every mistake then shame on you. Unfortunately that is the majority of YouTube..
Plus a lot of those videos have some constant angle changes that it makes it difficult to see what the drummer is doing sometimes (funny because the whole purpose of those videos is to see what the drummer is doing)...
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The thing is that presence of a person can not be captured on video. I’ve watched countless jazz drummers on video, unedited in concert. I have learned a lot from them, but when you see those high level players play in person there’s this sense of relaxation that you can not see on video. You just feel it. And that relaxation, that chill, I think, is crucial to achieve what they’re doing.

One time I was at Revival Drum Shop in Portland when a killer walks in and starts laying down a groove three feet away from me. The tone, power and balance he got out of that instrument (that wasn’t even his) was musically life changing for me. In person really counts and generally speaking we think video can replace it. It can not.
 
ravenson said:
First person I would go and watch perform is the " teacher " . You'd be surprised how many don't gig , or if they do . are less than inspirational .
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Actually I did watch my own teacher's performance two times at local venues. He has recorded and he has occasional gigs. He has been very active in our area for many years, and he is a Pearl endorser. His music is the "sit down and listen" type. He is the band leader and they play Jazz Fusion, but he knows other genres too (Rock, Latin, etc.).
 
I might have been 14 or 15 in 1968 and saw a horn band in the parking lot at EJ Korvettes. I'll never forget the drummer. Has inspired me to this day. It's the feeling he generated that I still remember. Didn't know who he was. It is all about the feel in the context of the music.
 
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jda said:
I'm not sure that's what he meant..Watching someone else is not you- Watching and listening is- like you did or do, did...
One drummer I remember watching (but don't know why) was I saw Max Roach in concert in 1990.
I had a view at him from his right side side - it was at the Manchester Craftsman Guild in Pittsburgh Pa. No lights or Light show was like HS Auditorium lighting. Very natural.
And watching his four limbs from the side I noticed- nothing- was moving quickly- not his hands not his feet- yet the songs tempo were quick. That one stuck in my mind all these years
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With Elvin it was "Oh... he doesn't slam all the time."
With Blakey it was "Wow the front head of his bass drum is sure moving, like the whole time."
With Vinnie Colaiuta it was "Store drum sticks in crotch when doing a quick switch from brushes."
 
toddbishop said:
Categorizing players and forming critical opinions isn't real useful, just listen to the ways people handle the thing they're playing. Just the specifics of how they play the material is what counts.
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a brand new guitar-playing member here.

Categorizing drummers is not the issue, but just listening to various approaches is important. There are a dozen different kinds of drummers. I think the main thing is knowing the song, playing the right thing so you are not overplaying, and dynamics. Live bands need everyone to be conscious of sound levels. If a singer cannot be heard it's trouble. If the drummer is drowning out the players on the other side of the stage for me it's a problem.

Learn how to use dynamics. I'm a guitarist but I can still say BAND dynamics make the show, Drummers - don't be the exception to the rules of dynamics. I know plenty of loud drummers (most of the slightly less experienced ones to be honest).
 
motterpaul said:
a brand new guitar-playing member here.

Categorizing drummers is not the issue, but just listening to various approaches is important. There are a dozen different kinds of drummers. I think the main thing is knowing the song, playing the right thing so you are not overplaying, and dynamics. Live bands need everyone to be conscious of sound levels. If a singer cannot be heard it's trouble. If the drummer is drowning out the players on the other side of the stage for me it's a problem.

Learn how to use dynamics. I'm a guitarist but I can still say BAND dynamics make the show, Drummers - don't be the exception to the rules of dynamics. I know plenty of loud drummers (most of the slightly less experienced ones to be honest).
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I completely understand the point about dynamics and the drum sound level. However, I have heard the term "overplaying" many times before.
I am interested to learn from the point of view of a guitar player what constitutes overplaying on the part of the drummer? Is it interrupting the rhythm and playing too many fills too often? Too many bass hits or bass doubles? playing 16th notes on hi-hat for a rhythm when 8th or even a quarter note would sound better? I am just guessing here. Thanks.
 
striker said:
I am interested to learn from the point of view of a guitar player what constitutes overplaying on the part of the drummer?
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Everyone thinks about this wrong.

It's an oversimplification, but ~99% of the time in a live music setting it's not overplaying that's the issue—it's sloppy playing. Or poor/inappropriate choices.

Audiences tend to really like the kinetic energy of live, engaging drums. Nothing quite like it.

~1% of the time it really is overplaying in the sense that you have a lack of space that is suffocating the energy of the performance, similar to how a constant stream of 32nds can become fatiguing and lose its impact absent rests and slower subdivisions.

You know that meme where this handsome guy says something to a female coworker and she swoons, but in the next frame an ugly slob says the same thing and gets reported to HR?

That first guy is Eric Moore. The second guy is you trying to be Eric Moore. He's tasteful and in the pocket. You're overplaying.

You could make all the same choices, but if you perform them sloppily he's still tasteful and you're still overplaying.

That's not to say that you can just play one big fill for an entire song as long as you're tight—that would, with few exception, be an extremely inappropriate choice. But perhaps the limit is very high on properly executed, complex hat work.

The tighter you play the more you can get away with, and vice versa. But it's also not just you. A sloppy band requires a lot more space, and will make just about any complexity sound band by bringing to the foreground that things aren't lining up properly.

EDIT:

Read the question wrong, but I imagine something similar exists with guitar. In my own experience, relative to drummers, "overplaying" guitarists have a greater tendency to be make poor choices and less tendency to be playing acceptable choices sloppily.

There's a certain breed of guitarist that is relatively skilled and enjoys showing off, but has no desire to play anything outside of classic rock. These types typically have zero capacity to comp, and tend to make some of the worst possible choices when required to play anything that isn't, at the very least, classic rock adjacent.
 
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Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
i like to watch other guys at gigs to see;
- how they handle load in/set up
- gear choices
- how they do sound check
- how they play, but more specifically, how they manage the stage/their role in the band
- how they handle shenanigans

granted, I am an introvert, who does not drink, and really can't stand being around other drunk people, so i usually don't go to shows outside of my own bands shows. I prefer to go watch people practice honestly...like at their practice spaces

but to see them navigate the clubs is cool if I am already there for a gig
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Good points. When I see another band, I'm actually more interested in the logistics than the playing. When I say "logistics" I'm wanting to see things that others might consider boring.

1. Set up / Tear down: Does anyone else help? Where does he store his empty cases? How does he mic the kit? How much space does he have?
2. Gear: What types of drums, cymbals, hardware, cases and mics?
3. Interaction with band members: How do they communicate on stage and off? Do they seem like friends or just co-workers?
 
For me, the "learning from watching a drummer" is watching the song starts and endings and other transitions. Band communication is always cool, as our band leader guitarist mostly didn't - it was painful sometimes.
 
Jeff Graw said:
Everyone thinks about this wrong.

It's an oversimplification, but ~99% of the time in a live music setting it's not overplaying that's the issue—it's sloppy playing. Or poor/inappropriate choices.
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It's true, I'm just not sure someone can become an exciting player through only ever making tasteful choices and never overplaying/playing to loud/making a wrong decision/etc. Usually there's a process where people go through a phase of playing too much and trying to assert some drums, and then figuring out how to sound good. A lot of exciting playing can be on the edge of not being tasteful.
 
To ,e a
Jeff Graw said:
Everyone thinks about this wrong.

It's an oversimplification, but ~99% of the time in a live music setting it's not overplaying that's the issue—it's sloppy playing. Or poor/inappropriate choices.

Audiences tend to really like the kinetic energy of live, engaging drums. Nothing quite like it.

~1% of the time it really is overplaying in the sense that you have a lack of space that is suffocating the energy of the performance, similar to how a constant stream of 32nds can become fatiguing and lose its impact absent rests and slower subdivisions.

You know that meme where this handsome guy says something to a female coworker and she swoons, but in the next frame an ugly slob says the same thing and gets reported to HR?

That first guy is Eric Moore. The second guy is you trying to be Eric Moore. He's tasteful and in the pocket. You're overplaying.

You could make all the same choices, but if you perform them sloppily he's still tasteful and you're still overplaying.

That's not to say that you can just play one big fill for an entire song as long as you're tight—that would, with few exception, be an extremely inappropriate choice. But perhaps the limit is very high on properly executed, complex hat work.

The tighter you play the more you can get away with, and vice versa. But it's also not just you. A sloppy band requires a lot more space, and will make just about any complexity sound band by bringing to the foreground that things aren't lining up properly.

EDIT:

Read the question wrong, but I imagine something similar exists with guitar. In my own experience, relative to drummers, "overplaying" guitarists have a greater tendency to be make poor choices and less tendency to be playing acceptable choices sloppily.

There's a certain breed of guitarist that is relatively skilled and enjoys showing off, but has no desire to play anything outside of classic rock. These types typically have zero capacity to comp, and tend to make some of the worst possible choices when required to play anything that isn't, at the very least, classic rock adjacent
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To me a lot of drummer overplay and get boring very quickly, I for example don't find Dream Theater or Animals As Leaders or Tool impressive at all. I think it is just a lot of overplaying but others feel that those drummers are the best because they can cram 25 tempo changes in one song.
I believe if those changes serve the music and are tastefully executed then they are fine and even sound good but when you have to have many abrupt stops to be able to execute all those tempo changes, then the music loses it groove and it's just like listening to a badly arranged compilation instead of a song.

Kind of like this video were there are a lot of abrupt changes but this is actually well played:

 
A J said:
Good points. When I see another band, I'm actually more interested in the logistics than the playing. When I say "logistics" I'm wanting to see things that others might consider boring.

1. Set up / Tear down: Does anyone else help? Where does he store his empty cases? How does he mic the kit? How much space does he have?
2. Gear: What types of drums, cymbals, hardware, cases and mics?
3. Interaction with band members: How do they communicate on stage and off? Do they seem like friends or just co-workers?
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and I can usually tell how the playing is going to be by looking at these facets first...
 
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toddbishop said:
... A lot of exciting playing can be on the edge of not being tasteful.
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I am DEFINITELY using this as an excuse the next time I mess something up :cool: ;)
 
toddbishop said:
It's true, I'm just not sure someone can become an exciting player through only ever making tasteful choices and never overplaying/playing to loud/making a wrong decision/etc. Usually there's a process where people go through a phase of playing too much and trying to assert some drums, and then figuring out how to sound good. A lot of exciting playing can be on the edge of not being tasteful.
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This is an absolutely fantastic post Todd. This stopped me in my tracks for a bit. Encourage ourselves more with the agency to take risks, sound a bit awful sometimes, maybe embarrass ourselves in order to be tasteful.
 
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