Vaccine Spotter

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
So did it leave you with any permanent issues like exercise asthma when you bike or anything or you back to full capacity? That's interesting the load theory-one concern I have is are we limiting our exposure to other viruses that don't cause disease but activate our immunity to give us cross-protection. I was just reading the paper isolating the T cells that recognize SARS-COV-2 in asymptomatic people and their evidence likely cross-protection (it was CD 4 helper memory cells and no antibodies to spike) from a benign coronavirus. Lots of studies in kids how being too clean is actually unhealthy-activating our immunity increases our health apparently.

There is non-specific effects of developing natural immunity and vaccine immunity that are beneficial -"The central paradigm of vaccination is to generate resistance to infection by a specific pathogen when the vacinee is re-exposed to that pathogen. This paradigm is based on two fundamental characteristics of the adaptive immune system, specificity and memory. These characteristics come from the clonal specificity of T and B cells and the long-term survival of previously-encountered memory cells which can rapidly and specifically expand upon re-exposure to the same specific antigen. However, there is an increasing awareness of the concept, as well as experimental documentation of, heterologous immunity and cross-reactivity of adaptive immune lymphocytes in protection from infection. This awareness is supported by a number of human epidemiological studies in vaccine recipients and/or individuals naturally-resistant to certain infections, as well as studies in mouse models of infections, and indeed theoretical considerations regarding the disproportional repertoire of available T and B cell clonotypes compared to antigenic epitopes found on pathogens. Heterologous immunity can broaden the protective outcomes of vaccinations, and natural resistance to infections. Besides exogenous microbes/pathogens and/or vaccines, endogenous microbiota can also impact the outcomes of an infection and/or vaccination through heterologous immunity. Moreover, utilization of viral and/or bacterial vaccine vectors, capable of inducing heterologous immunity may also influence the natural course of many infections/diseases. This review article will briefly discuss these implications and redress the central dogma of specificity in the immune system." So we can be too isolated with a goal of reducing flu or coronaviruses with interventions and have collateral damage of weakening our population immunity-like kids had no immunity to H1N1 but a lot of adults had partial immunity-likely cross-reactivity or years of vaccinations to other flu strains.
Your vaccination against paragraphs might be wearing off. You've put TWO in one comment! 😰
 

Bozozoid

Well-known member
I've procrastinated up to now. My fiance has had three!. She works at a pharmacy and is setting me up for Johnson&Johnson?. I told her I'll get that shot then the show is over. I'm NOT getting a shot from every manufacturer.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
They have been talking about yearly boosters. How many are willing to do this every year?

Not sure. I'm looking forward to getting my 2nd dose out of the way, but aside from that I'll wait and see. If anything, it's the variants that'll convince me to do it.

The long-term effects of covid in a small percentage of the population is very creepy and I am mostly worried about it.
There's that, too.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
There has been lots of research with protease inhibitors in viral diseases-including HIV. They released another one specific to SARS-COV the last year or so. But this new one specific to COVID they apparently started from scratch-there are two sets of clinical trials-one a pill and the other if people get sick and go to hospital and need intravenous. I think the Phase I trial ends this month sometime-so data should be out soon. Nothing published yet but I have high hopes. There has always been fears of vaccines so I don't diss people for their trepidation-it would be foolish not to be cautious-all vaccines have risk and all vaccines still have some population who still gets sick depending on the vaccine-like the mumps vaccine really sucks with people still getting it, and some vaccines aren't recommended for certain people. I think the more tools we have to fight pathogens the better.

I like the specificity of the spike strategy for vaccines but the fact people who've had the virus and then get vaccinated have a better memory immunity built makes me think the exposure to more antigen epitopes other than spike can yield a greater response so more generic vaccines booster might help the population stay one step ahead of the coronavirus or another virus that jumps to humans. Measels was originally a cow virus that jumped to humans about 2-3k years ago since then they have both evolved so the cow virus doesn't impact humans. It's when these viruses jump from one species to another they often hybridize to a variant that can infect humans. SARS-COV-2 has been found to jump from humans to infect other animal hosts (dog, cat, tiger, lion, and mink) have been reported (cats were asymptomatic and they pass it on to other cats). The significance of that is unknown but it's to my point SARS-COV-2 is likely in other species in our ecosystems now-so they could hybridize with another coronavirus to produce a new coronavirus that might jump back to humans. Viruses are as promiscuous as humans.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
There has been lots of research with protease inhibitors in viral diseases-including HIV. They released another one specific to SARS-COV the last year or so. But this new one specific to COVID they apparently started from scratch-there are two sets of clinical trials-one a pill and the other if people get sick and go to hospital and need intravenous. I think the Phase I trial ends this month sometime-so data should be out soon. Nothing published yet but I have high hopes. There has always been fears of vaccines so I don't diss people for their trepidation-it would be foolish not to be cautious-all vaccines have risk and all vaccines still have some population who still gets sick depending on the vaccine-like the mumps vaccine really sucks with people still getting it, and some vaccines aren't recommended for certain people. I think the more tools we have to fight pathogens the better.

I like the specificity of the spike strategy for vaccines but the fact people who've had the virus and then get vaccinated have a better memory immunity built makes me think the exposure to more antigen epitopes other than spike can yield a greater response so more generic vaccines booster might help the population stay one step ahead of the coronavirus or another virus that jumps to humans. Measels was originally a cow virus that jumped to humans about 2-3k years ago since then they have both evolved so the cow virus doesn't impact humans. It's when these viruses jump from one species to another they often hybridize to a variant that can infect humans. SARS-COV-2 has been found to jump from humans to infect other animal hosts (dog, cat, tiger, lion, and mink) have been reported (cats were asymptomatic and they pass it on to other cats). The significance of that is unknown but it's to my point SARS-COV-2 is likely in other species in our ecosystems now-so they could hybridize with another coronavirus to produce a new coronavirus that might jump back to humans. Viruses are as promiscuous as humans.
That's it, I'm getting my booster shot!
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
It's interesting the fears of vaccine might introduce viral genes into cells (which some viruses do and cause cancer) or germ cells which would impact evolution. Now plenty of viruses are associated with disease-so virologist know more about them but now the significance of viruses as positive is being discovered in health. Geneticist find 40% of mammalian genomes are in germ-line and viral elements. It is believed viruses added the genetic novelty and control elements that promoted the evolution of mammals-placenta development full of viral element controls. In the gut it's being discovered just how important viruses are for gut health and positive impacts on immunity. Not all viruses are bad-we wouldn't be here without them. They are like bacteria-there is good bacteria and bad. Phage viruses in gut control bacterial populations and certain bacteria activate immunity-interferon production that fights viruses.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I hope that those that get a vaccination don’t think that they are then allowed to cheat on their wife. 🤨
Crap, I didnt think about it in reverse. I hope not also.
 

Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
Researchers from the Salk institute conducted a study whereby spike protein alone, sans Covid, was introduced into lab animals and the animals sustained significant physical harm. The story has been running on the back pages of the internet since, but I think it may bubble up to the surface before long. This is the 2nd - at least - podcast by these good folk, both PhDs in biology, on the subject.

 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Just learned about the bribes.

San Francisco:

Maine:

Memphis:

Krispy Kreme:

Target:

Popcorn and Marijuana:

Detroit:

$1,000,000 Ohio:

I just cant help but think there is something inherently wrong here...
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Here is the Salk site that I think talks about this.

The article states that the spike in the vaccine doesn’t pose the same danger. Maybe another @GetAgrippa intervention is needed.


Now, a major new study shows that the virus spike proteins (which behave very differently than those safely encoded by vaccines) also play a key role in the disease itself.
That’s a preprint that hasn’t been peer-reviewed yet I don’t believe. They showed it impacted mitochondria, down regulated ACE-2. and impaired eNOS ( nitric oxide synthase). Their first paper indicated free radical damage and mitochondrial changes from virus. This is a follow up. I’ll have to read it. I’m not sure if they demonstrated a mechanism . The effect on vascular endothelium has been published in other papers . And because spike mimics a human protein iInvolved with a sodium channel and is believed to alter them related to fluid n lungs. It’s probably multilevel but what causes what will take time to dissect. It impacts cells on up- tissues,organs, systems . The virus get in your brain also about everywhere. ACE—2 is essential to cardiovascular regulation. One of the pharmacology guys we collaborated with was a renown ACE-2 researcher. The virus effects blood, immune cells, macrophages. Vascular endothelium and it’s function of all. The change in sodium channel by spike as a competitor for natural binding sites could generate free radicals, mitochondrial change s , down regulation. In cultured cells that I would have run their DNA on gels to look for fragmented ladders signs of apoptosis. The same things happen programmed cell death.
 
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GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Spike is subunit protein that it’s fusion domains hidden till a protease cleave spike and exposes so can enter. It can enter at cell surface or through endoplasmic reticulum there are natural cell enzymes proteases that cleave the various coronavirus spiked in MERS, SARS- the J&J pill is a specific SARS- COV-2 inhibitor. The protease exposes the fusion domains and in SARS COV- / it’s a protease called Furin that acts in endoplasmic reticulum where it normally cleaved all kind of proteins turning on activity. Depending on protease tells you how it enters like one use cathepsin protease. SARS-Cov- 2 uses endocytotic pathway which is pretty complicated and important in cell signaling cascades. “Endocytic entry of viruses occurs in a stepwise manner involving attachment to the cell surface, clustering of receptors (ACE-2), activation of signaling pathways, formation of endocyticvesicles and vacuoles, delivery of viral cargo to endosomal compartments, sorting, and escape into the cytosol.” So it fuses through membranes if to enter. The paper with direct effects on brain endothelium bought specific subunit domains of spike and tested subunit direct action. But that doesn’t occur in nature it’s artificial. The paper you cited uses a pseudovirus spike protein that I’m not sure 🤔 if that s more natural or artificial like blood brain paper.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Spike is subunit protein that it’s fusion domains hidden till a protease cleave spike and exposes so can enter. It can enter at cell surface or through endoplasmic reticulum there are natural cell enzymes proteases that cleave the various coronavirus spiked in MERS, SARS- the J&J pill is a specific SARS- COV-2 inhibitor. The protease exposes the fusion domains and in SARS COV- / it’s a protease called Furin that acts in endoplasmic reticulum where it normally cleaved all kind of proteins turning on activity. Depending on protease tells you how it enters like one use cathepsin protease. SARS-Cov- 2 uses endocytotic pathway which is pretty complicated and important in cell signaling cascades. “Endocytic entry of viruses occurs in a stepwise manner involving attachment to the cell surface, clustering of receptors (ACE-2), activation of signaling pathways, formation of endocyticvesicles and vacuoles, delivery of viral cargo to endosomal compartments, sorting, and escape into the cytosol.” So it fuses through membranes if to enter. The paper with direct effects on brain endothelium bought specific subunit domains of spike and tested subunit direct action. But that doesn’t occur in nature it’s artificial. The paper you cited uses a pseudovirus spike protein that I’m not sure 🤔 if that s more natural or artificial like blood brain paper.
I figured out what you're doing Art. You're keeping us busy trying to decipher your doctoral thesis while you're off practicing your drums. Am I right or am I really right??
 

Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
This is why I posted that particular podcast. Lay people, in terms of virology and immunology, require explanations from people who know how to impart that information in a way that avoids confusion. Bret Weinstein has experience teaching, and he breaks difficult topics beyond most people's knowledge into relatively easily digestible bits of information. No offense intended, but some of the replies here are nearly incomprehensible, partly because they assume a metric ton of knowledge specific to the science, and partly because they're presented rather badly.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
I just cant help but think there is something inherently wrong here...
The people that don't want to vax need a reason to get the shot without aspiring their decision to politics, religion or belief in science.

But do they really need the shot if the rest of the world gets it? Yes, for the simple fact that those vaccinated can still be infectious during the onset (of an infection) while their new immunity catches up to the viral load:


Without a doubt, vaccinations will slow the overall infection rate in the general population. But when the vaccination period is over - the number of vaccinations is currently starting to slow - and you have a segment of the population that refuses to get the vaccine, you could potentially have a breakout within that segment, while the vax'd segment would be protected. Without getting into politics, *if* a large portion of the unvax'd are for political reasons, the end result is a party's voter base being disproportionately affected.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
ROFL part is I ramble on here-make no effort to be cogent. And the problem Old Pit is even scientist "aren't sure' about much of anything with this new virus-though similar in sequence to SARS and MERS it's completely different how it works it appears. I know those on the tube expressing their changing opinion (with the changing science) have received lots of criticisms for mixed messaging-but blame the science for the most part. I started keeping up with the literature right at first, then put it down because it was all over the place, now back and it's a steady tick and a whole bunch of papers seeming to find more clarity. But every paper is just reviewed by a few of their peers-not all-so it gets published. Afterwards you can get a spurt of papers criticizing the work. Like the pangolin as possible intermediary host, they phylogenetic analysis-all different in conclusions. The immunity aspect is largest and this Science paper highlight using flow cytometry and all the diagnostic antibodies) how we divide people because of their immunological competence and how they might respond to virus. It's how we respond to virus immunologically. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7402624/

No one uses same methodology in many aspects of research and all want to emphasize their study-but it's all just pieces in puzzle. What I hate about meta-analysis is , because methodology difference, it's hard to find articles fitting a critieria and so out of thousands of article 20 may fit. It can be limited in scope depending on topic. It tries to do what scientist do in weigh all the evidence-just it is more focused and uses statistics. These articles trying to find a direct action of the spike protein isn't that easy because so many steps and enzymes involved in viral fusion (and endosome compartment) and no one is looking at everything. When you get to "endosome" It's what you focus on and the questions you ask because it's part of cis-trans Golgi network-it processes protein for activity, or to be expelled, it shuffle membrane and receptors to degradation, or tells it to stay internally, etc. ACE-2 its itself an enzyme that breaks down Angiotensin II a powerful vasoconstrictor and regulates smooth muscle tone -there are numerous antagonist to constriction too (what I studies a bit nitric oxide,prostaglandin, etc). When the virus binds the ACE-2 receptor they are potential competing with And II and once bound the receptors are internalized with virus bound by one spike domain and proteases start chewing on spike to expose it is fusion domain. Altering ACE-2 by spike binding may not be "direct" effect because with ACE-2 activity altered the effect could be mediated by over stimulation by AngII since the enzyme that breaks it down altered =ACE-2 not active. I personally hold the blood-brain paper suspect because they use high doses of purified spike domain peptides-not bound to anything. This new paper using a pseudo virus is better conceived but still what the spike is doing to produce a respiratory burst of free radicals, mitochondria changes, etc can be mediated by something downstream of spike entering the cell, just related to ACE-2, or the process of making the capsid altered the spike protein glycans or structure and it's all an artifact. Producing an altered pseudovirus is a manipulation of the virus to produce one that its just the capsid and no contents-it can alter the capsid. This idea is being used to make vaccine too-use an altered capsid pseudo virus to produce immunity. What they know from other coronaviruses has been useful like the new SAR-COV-2 pilll is specific to that protease while they've also made SAR-COV virus from first pandemic specific to that protease is my understanding. It's moving super fast with evidence but how that translates to our understanding reality is yet to be discovered. Science falsifies things easily but "proving" something is beyond it's capacity-you get to preponderance of evidence (but answer can persist for decades till one paper can falsify the whole body supporting the wrong answer (I did that in one paper). The mucosa contains ACE-2, but also contains ACE-the enzyme that produces Angiotensin II and also has receptors of And II. ACE-2 degrades the AngII-so it alters ACE and Angiotensin receptors so the effect of spike can be just from altered cell signaling and mediated more from Angiotensin II over saturation. Yet to be discovered. There isn't an organ in the body that scientist aren't looking for hypothetical impacts just from known cell biology and cell signaling but what of that is significant I have no idea. The immunity aspect is really most important. Since a majority have no symptoms nor any effects. That to me tells me direct effects of spike aren't global (or at least lethal) because we do develop immunity so macrophages that carry the virus still perform their function, as other immune cells. I think one paper found evidence of damaging cardiomyocytes but obviously that isn't common nor likely direct-more likely cytokine storm mediated. Otherwise we'd have a gigantic population of people in heart failure.

Often a discovery is accidental-the scientist is trying to explore one thing and finds something else unrelated that ends up being really significant-like the lady who discovered cardiac neural crest. The neural crest are migratory cells that make all our autonomic nervous system (even in gut and heart), make melanocytes for skin pigment, forms muscle and bone in face, etc. She was trying to produce an aneural heart removing the tissue before migration. Well she didn't get an aneural heart-just ones with facial anomalies and they all had a heart defect-predominately PTA. She was "heart broken" lol but the chairman said hey maybe the heart defect thing is something to pursue-thousands and thousand of papers, labs across the globe, probably billions of dollars of grants by now demonstrated he was correct. He was looking at neural crest in thymus. The cardiac neural crest form all the smooth muscle of the great arteries-all the rest of body smooth muscle is mesodermal in origin-and it forms the septum that separates the great arteries-so without it they don't septate-PTA.
 

Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
Obviously you didn't watch the podcast. I don't know what compels your expectation that I'm going to read all of this when I've already stated most people simply don't have the background in the applicable sciences to decipher it, nor do I have an inclination to spend that much time cross-checking and learning the relevant nomenclature.

This is a serious enough subject that it strains credulity, mine, at least, to accept a 1000 word unformatted post on a drum forum concerning unknowns during a pandemic and a rushed vaccine using high specialization and mice that could corrupt the entire effort, and when it's related to biology, pharmacology, medicine, immunology, and virology, when I can access clearly stated arguments distilled for my benefit from credentialed people who've spent decades in the necessary fields of expertise.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
From what I've read in US it's evangelical christians and young African-Americans distrust the vaccine. It's not ideological in political or religion from the study but just pure fear and distrust of the vaccine. Which has been a common problem for decades-papers, books on the subject. It's really an irrational fear based on just not knowing-which I completely get. I failed a cardiac stress test so had to be get a Cath-he told me I had heart failure. Well it suppose to be the next week but no he was going out of town so took a few weeks. Hell by then I was the walking dead-I was scared to death-having heart palpations and pain. Had the Cath and he said I have the coronaries of an 18 year old. I wanted to strangle him-he actually trained with my Dad when he came back to school to be a cardiologist. So I couldn't beat him up but I dang sure wanted to-I'd written a letter to my kids in the event of my death. The unknown can freak you out. But then you get some egghead trying to explain it to you-your physician or worse a scientist-and often it's like Charlie Brown blah, blah, blah, blah you don't know what the hell they are talking about. I was good friends with all my professors-well most-but some were just terrible at teaching-count me in that pool but I never had any ambitions to teach-I just wanted to do research. Well life-Mr Mom changed all that. During my teaching the thing I wanted every student to walk out with a minimum to accept the science of evolution (the last I taught was a Methodist Historic Black College) and that it isn't an attack on your faith if you have one, similarly because of evolution and gene flow there is no biological/genetic race. and finally that vaccines are the greatest contribution (use to be antibiotics and vaccine) and success of any medical breaththough. I did get better at teaching and when I quit a lot of students came to visit me and tell me how they enjoyed my lectures. I was really bad at first I admit.
 
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