Vaccine Spotter

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Well I hope everyone is getting vaccinated if you aren't wear a mask, and wear a good one and make sure it fits well. Here is a slide from a recent mask testing paper using a new technology to visualize penetration through mask-or leakage. A pic is worth a thousand words. The N95 and surgical mask block penetration but still some leakage-especially surgical mask. The thee layered mask did lower penetration but still passage and lots of turbulent leakage around face, the other masks had significant penetration. This paper followed the "one paper" stating the effectiveness of a three layered mask so it appear to partially falsify that data. I trust an N95 and wearing it properly.
 

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Auspicious

Well-known member
I just want to be sure, according to your knowledge, the mRNA or DNA vaccines won't alter the genetic code of cells for them to produce the spike protein? So there is some kind of turning back to previous cell state over time?

No they are transient, and since we are exposed to so many adenoviruses in nature they seek variants a population would unlikely have immunity- that’s the deal with adenovirus you can recognize it and would immediately neutralize it so it would never reach target cells to use your cell machinery to make virus particles and those proteins of interest from SARS Cov 2 or Ebola to produce immunity. The mRNA can be regulated for number of times a message is translated and proteins or peptide produced half life regulated by the N-terminus rule signals time and the location where a protein will go - secreted, cytoplasm or cell membrane or proteins for degradation also regulated by signaling molecules. They want to go to membrane to be expressed in major histcompatibility complexes to present antigens for immunity in target cells. Really more than how safe is the degree of effectiveness and how long immunity persists.
@GetAgrippa I don't understand s*** about a 2/2 time signature,. 🤣

But I'll take this as a: No it won't alter the genetic code and close the file.

Thanks.
 

Sakae2xBopster

Well-known member
Got my second Moderna shot, and didn't feel well for two days afterward. A week later I celebrated by finally getting a haircut after 400 days,

 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Well I hope everyone is getting vaccinated if you aren't wear a mask, and wear a good one and make sure it fits well. Here is a slide from a recent mask testing paper using a new technology to visualize penetration through mask-or leakage. A pic is worth a thousand words. The N95 and surgical mask block penetration but still some leakage-especially surgical mask. The thee layered mask did lower penetration but still passage and lots of turbulent leakage around face, the other masks had significant penetration. This paper followed the "one paper" stating the effectiveness of a three layered mask so it appear to partially falsify that data. I trust an N95 and wearing it properly.
I couldn't make heads or tails of that image you attached. What units are the numbers on the color scale? Why does the exhaled air look like a flame on the end of a match? It looks like a test subject laying at the foot of the door to hell.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I couldn't make heads or tails of that image you attached. What units are the numbers on the color scale? Why does the exhaled air look like a flame on the end of a match? It looks like a test subject laying at the foot of the door to hell.
The earlier paper was a qualitative study similar to this one but it emulated a cough. This emulates just a breathe of just 10% salt water that is nebulized and expelled consistently in 300 ml breath from the dummy (500 ml Is lower end of a cough) that a conical laser visulizes for filming so many frames. The intense red just demonstrated the aerosolized droplets from a breath and if they can penetrate a mask or how they can escape.

Really it's interesting because there is a ton of quantitative studies (not with triple layer mask) with N95, surgical mask, and clothe mask. N95 always significant which it blocks penetration and the little leakage must not be a risk, surgical mask are often on cusp of statistical significance or not in different papers-which it blocks penetration but it's sure is leaky and may explain why the papers all over the place (but it blocks penetration and if fitted good should be great). The single layer mask and bandana don't do squat-which supports majority of papers. The handmade layered mask did block penetration some though lots of turbulent flow over forehead which concerns me that if someone does quantitative studies of hand made triple layered mask it will be like surgical mask and likely some say yea and some nay. Llikely partly fitting driven-the earlier quantitative paper also emphasized fitting-you have to wear one correctly-which I rarely see anyone LOL, but droplets did penetrate.

There is like a100 years of study I've read papers from 1930 that was able to determine the distance those aerosolized droplets travel accurately back then-pretty amazing considering the complexity of small droplets ability to travel long distances because all kinds of strange effects of who they can disperse physics . The quantitative data uses droplets actually loaded with different viruses and how they penetrate. The question with SARS-COV-2 is what load of virus does a droplet need (and how much spray) to be infectious (bacteria and viruses have to reach a critical mass to infect a person and it's known for many-not COVID).

The fitting is a huge issue and likely has conflated studies for decades and this really helps scientist see in real time what droplets do to help design better mask. Having a device to visually test fit would be awesome. Even if it doesn't penetrate the mask if droplets escape it's self defeating. Some might trust a triple layer mask but I "see it " as a crap shoot. The single layer stuff is not blocking droplets which the previous paper found the same. But in their study with coughs and sneezes they examined speed of droplet dispersal and distance traveled-which the hand-made triple layered mask in their study it blocked but did show leakage. This paper just compares relative dispersal a short distance of assaying penetration and fitting more intensely with just breathing and they had penetration in this paper with the triple layer handmade mask just breathing (course droplets produced breathing different than coughing and sneezing too). Since the beginning I only trusted a N95 but I think the surgical mask when fitted really well would be just as effective as an N95.

The triple layer might work fine because the reduction of droplets (and likely a small size droplet-none of papers really looked at size of droplets) and those that penetrate don't travel far enough or have enough load of virus-but I don't want to find out. Single layer mask definitely don't cut in both qualitative studies. It is interesting that in Denmark they completed a large randomized clinical trial to test surgical mask wearing in public outside for impact on COVID in November 2020." Conclusion-The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection." Now studies find most of time people contract at home, and surgical mask do offer protection as far as penetration so I'm a bit shocked with that results. There is one paper of four small trials that test N95 and cloth mask and it did have a benefit. They all use different methodology which often makes cross comparisons difficult which is pretty much common practice in research-people will assay the same thing multiple ways and each can produce different results. It’s interesting the triple layer mask blocked coughs and sneezes in the one study but a breath seemed to pass in this using a bit different methodology.
 
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rhumbagirl

Senior Member
The earlier paper was a qualitative study similar to this one but it emulated a cough. This emulates just a breathe of just 10% salt water that is nebulized and expelled consistently in 300 ml breath from the dummy (500 ml Is lower end of a cough) that a conical laser visulizes for filming so many frames. The intense red just demonstrated the aerosolized droplets from a breath and if they can penetrate a mask or how they can escape. Really it's interesting because there is a ton of quantitative studies (not with triple layer mask) with N95, surgical mask, and clothe mask. N95 always significant which it blocks penetration and the little leakage must not be a risk, surgical mask are often on cusp of statistical significance or not in different papers-which it blocks penetration but it's sure is leaky and may explain why the papers all over the place (but it blocks penetration and if fitted good should be great). The single layer mask and bandana don't do squat-which supports majority of papers. The handmade layered mask did block penetration some though lots of turbulent flow over forehead which concerns me that if someone does quantitative studies of hand made triple layered mask it will be like surgical mask and likely some say yea and some nay. Llikely partly fitting driven-the earlier quantitative paper also emphasized fitting-you have to wear one correctly-which I rarely see anyone LOL, but droplets did penetrate. There is like a100 years of study I've read papers from 1930 that was able to determine the distance those aerosolized droplets travel accurately back then-pretty amazing considering the complexity of small droplets ability to travel long distances. The quantitative data uses droplets actually loaded with different viruses and how they penetrate. The question with SARS-COV-2 is what load of virus does a droplet need (and how much spray) to be infectious (bacteria and viruses have to reach a critical mass to infect a person and it's known for many-not COVID). The fitting is a huge issue and likely has conflated studies for decades and this really helps scientist see in real time what droplets do to help design better mask. Having a device to visually test fit would be awesome. Even if it doesn't penetrate the mask if droplets escape it's self defeating. Some might trust a triple layer mask but I "see it " as a crap shoot. The single layer stuff is not blocking droplets which the previous paper found the same. But in their study with coughs and sneezes they examined speed of droplet dispersal and distance traveled-which the hand-made triple layered mask in their study it blocked but did show leakage. This paper just compares relative dispersal a short distance of assaying penetration and fitting more intensely with just breathing and they had penetration in this paper with the triple layer handmade mask just breathing (course droplets produced breathing different than coughing and sneezing too). Since the beginning I only trusted a N95 but I think the surgical mask when fitted really well would be just as effective as an N95. The triple layer might work fine because the reduction of droplets and those that penetrate don't travel far enough or have enough load of virus-but I don't want to find out. Single layer mask definitely don't cut in both qualitative studies. It is interesting that in Denmark they completed a large randomized clinical trial to test surgical mask wearing in public outside for impact on COVID in November 2020." Conclusion-The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection." Now studies find most of time people contract at home, and surgical mask do offer protection as far as penetration so I'm a bit shocked with that results. Makes me think outdoors the aerodynamic of droplets bodes against infection-they get taken away but upward draft, or dry out or UV light or something since surgical mask ineffective in THIS study. There is one paper of four small trials that test N95 and cloth mask and it did have a benefit. They all use different methodology which often makes cross comparisons difficult which is pretty much common practice in research-people will assay the same thing multiple ways and each can produce different results. It’s interesting the triple layer mask blocked coughs and sneezes in the one study but a breath seemed to pass in this
Wow. I have a 27in iMac, and your post filled it up entirely. I'm afraid to read it. I don't wanna spoil the sensation! There's probably a hidden message in there somewhere.

This would be an awesome tattoo, straight across the upper back!
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
It was late snd I was streaming- before i went to bed. actually I was rambling with Denmark study. I’m not sure whst I was thinking about sun and ciurrents because it didn’t lower infection rate. I think I jumped tracks to the study thst showed your risk outdoors lower in Summer. It’s a lot easier to get vaccinated than sort these studies. Before you get that tattoo let me edit for mistakes -it could get longer ROFL. I don't trust the Meta-analysis because all the studies so different there is only a small fraction of studiess that make it in their study that fit their criteria-so seems too much of a snapshot. A 2006 study investigation penetration of N95 and surgical using MS2 virus that comes in sizes from 10-80 nm found even an N95 let more than 5% of smallest particles through and surgical mask passed right through, but those are not respiratory droplets. When people cough the size droplets range .5-500 um-most in 1,2,8 microns, while breath is mostly less than a micron but larger than 1 micron also. Then too studies of asymptomatic patients even being infectious has studies indicating they aren't and some studies they are but one of the most recent meta-analysis that found evidence of asymptomatic transfer state "maybe infectious" and more studies needed. All the mask papers state the same thing "may, caveats of study, more study needed". It's the same state of this issue from 2000 with SARS and just leaves me scratching my head. Part of problem is social distancing and hygiene so much more effective it's difficult to tease out a mask effect-then differences in metholdogy. Most people I see wear bandana or single layer masks that aren't doing anything from a huge preponderance of studies. People stating any mask will work with impunity must be high ROFL.
 
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GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
What's interesting about asymptomatic pool is there are those with no system and no effects except a healthy immune response, but some had ground glass opacities similar to COVID impact. However they didn't investigate vaping use-which those who vape can have ground glass opacities so you don't know what that means.

This virus is like HIV pandemic in that it stimulating an immunology boom-a field of slow going for decades. I use to follow the research with other fields but it expanded so fast that was impossible. This highlights our response to disease is all about individual immunity in how we respond to virus-either a healthy response or storm and long COVID impacts. It's our innate and adaptive immunity balance and hopefully this pandemic will produce major breakthroughs because this feeds into inflammation which seems the cause of most of our bad health outcomes. As sad and bad I'm hoping there is some silver linings in health and medicine.

The long term immunity a big issue from either natural infection or vaccines and how long it last (there is a report from SARS immunity 20 years later) and those who get COVID seem to have at least 8 months. Normally natural immunity produces a response of a whole bunch of immune cell specific to epitopes all over antigenic site of a virus-these new vaccines are like specific missiles and only activates some of your immune cells you have against any pathogen you have the immunity innately. Some immunologist concerned that other domains or more domains than spike might produce better vaccines. But so far these missiles seem great. Either natural or vaccine the immunity last different time periods from weeks to years depending on virus/pathogen (like flu vaccines can last just weeks recently reported). So while these vaccines are specific to small fraction of epitopes of spike protein you have immunity to other areas of SARS-COV-2 that will turn on-build a response and then develop immunological memory so next time you won't get sick or die.

Since it's a respiratory virus also an interest in using nasal adenoviral vaccine for a more robust mucosal response to prevent viral entry-so have circulating and sentinel cells in mucosa (though flu nasal vaccine has had issues). Those asymptomatic found to have SARS-COV-2 antibody producing cells that reduced infection in their mucosa (they didn't distinguish whether just primary B cells or plasma memory B cells-the same with T-cells but it's much more difficult to distinguish memory T cells (but there is evidence some people seem to have a brisk memory immunity response and they must have had some cross-reactivity from another coronavirus. There are new biomarkers of inflammation that will likely be used in future to access patients and how they might respond to COVID and take preemptive action to prevent storm by perhaps neutralizing inflammatory cytokine cocktails like Regenron idea-you could also isolate and culture lymphocytes from a patient prone to storm and change their phenotype (I did that my first postdoc) using cytokines and then inject back into patients to see if they can generate a better pro-inflammatory response. You can isolate from blood using flow cytometry and antibodies to specific cell types. I never ever even took an immunology course per se -just in biochem and in an anatomy and physiology class-so I learned so much that post doc but it was overwhelming how fast it was changing. I was most interested in just macrophages because their role in cardiovascular disease but it's all connected so you can't separate it. We isolated human macrophages from blood all the time for various projects. It was all pretty cool
 
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Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
Are you bartering a drum set for dental work? If delaying a future kit purchase, which one??

I've sold a fair amount to pay for dental work. I don't miss any of it, but without dental insurance - and even with it - dental care beyond routine maintenance is quite expensive. The first dentist I had when problems began worked up my "dental plan" and it was 20K. I guess the blood drained from face when he said it because he mumbled something about 'working with me'. But each subsequent visit for cleaning he'd come in afterwards and cop a noticeable attitude because I wasn't scheduling for 'the plan'. FF and the hygienist finds a 10mm pocket on a tooth I'd mentioned to him previously and he said he couldn't see anything. The reason I went there in the first place was periodontal issues. The cleanings were every 4 months. So I said the hell with this guy and booked with a periodontist. $2000 in deep cleanings later my teeth feel half decent. Moral: if you have any concerns that your dentist is hinky don't walk, run to a second opinion. Going to that guy cost me way more money than it should have.
 

Old PIT Guy

Well-known member
Had my two shots back in February. Pfizer, no effects other than the injection site ache. Try your major grocery stores and big name pharmacies. Wal Greens, CVS etc.

Same here but had them last month. Had a bit of a weird headache after the 1st one and my arm got really sore. Second shot was next to nothing. If the country doesn't get more people vaccinated there's going to be issues, especially with more virulent variants. But, you know ... conspiracy theories abound. Tell that to the families of the nearly 1,000,000 deceased in the USA alone.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I've sold a fair amount to pay for dental work. I don't miss any of it, but without dental insurance - and even with it - dental care beyond routine maintenance is quite expensive. The first dentist I had when problems began worked up my "dental plan" and it was 20K. I guess the blood drained from face when he said it because he mumbled something about 'working with me'. But each subsequent visit for cleaning he'd come in afterwards and cop a noticeable attitude because I wasn't scheduling for 'the plan'. FF and the hygienist finds a 10mm pocket on a tooth I'd mentioned to him previously and he said he couldn't see anything. The reason I went there in the first place was periodontal issues. The cleanings were every 4 months. So I said the hell with this guy and booked with a periodontist. $2000 in deep cleanings later my teeth feel half decent. Moral: if you have any concerns that your dentist is hinky don't walk, run to a second opinion. Going to that guy cost me way more money than it should have.
Yes my youngest daughter must have found the same dentist-her new one isn't finding any of the issues. You have to be proactive with health care-all physicians, nurses, dentist, hygienist really aren't the same. Some great some suck-dang it's like music good and bad. And the cost is just insane with no real effort to address cost of health care per inflation ever , and if you live in US quality of health care like education is plummeting. My brother is having just one tooth dental implant and it's taken months and costing him a fortune-had to do a bone graft first. Now he has a partial that he doesn't wear and with his big ears looks like Alfred E Newman LOL.

.
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Same here but had them last month. Had a bit of a weird headache after the 1st one and my arm got really sore. Second shot was next to nothing. If the country doesn't get more people vaccinated there's going to be issues, especially with more virulent variants. But, you know ... conspiracy theories abound. Tell that to the families of the nearly 1,000,000 deceased in the USA alone.
I couldn't convince my 81 yo mother to schedule the shot. I'd send her addresses of vaccination clinics and dates and times and she would give me a reason for not going.

Then she eventually got one a few days after mine. She was in a Costco with my sister shopping for a phone. I had called her to chat and mentioned that Costco pharmacy likely gives the shots. Somehow she changed her mind and got one.

She had little symptoms and she thinks she's tough. I told her the 2nd shot is typically worse. Maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Moderna, a mRNA shot.

I get my 2nd Pfizer shot a week from today.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I couldn't convince my 81 yo mother to schedule the shot. I'd send her addresses of vaccination clinics and dates and times and she would give me a reason for not going.

Then she eventually got one a few days after mine. She was in a Costco with my sister shopping for a phone. I had called her to chat and mentioned that Costco pharmacy likely gives the shots. Somehow she changed her mind and got one.

She had little symptoms and she thinks she's tough. I told her the 2nd shot is typically worse. Maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Moderna, a mRNA shot.

I get my 2nd Pfizer shot a week from today.
Good for you encouraging your family- I’m still working on an older brother. Rhumba you thought you had a moderate case of Covid and after effects-long COVID. Do you still think it was COVID and have you recovered fully-I’m reading long recovery times for some. my wife has several nurse friends who had COVID and still long COVID with lung issues? After your first Pfizer did you have any fever or feel cruddy or just a sore arm or nothing?
 

The Shepherd

Well-known member
Good for you encouraging your family- I’m still working on an older brother. Rhumba you thought you had a moderate case of Covid and after effects-long COVID. Do you still think it was COVID and have you recovered fully-I’m reading long recovery times for some. my wife has several nurse friends who had COVID and still long COVID with lung issues? After your first Pfizer did you have any fever or feel cruddy or just a sore arm or nothing?
I asked my mum if she'd signed up to get her shot. She should have went in a few weeks ago but still hadn't.

I showed up at her apartment and signed her up online. I picked the same time and day as myself so I could help her get in the door, lead her in and all that. We both are doing well.

My mum is starting to show early signs of dementia so I thought it best that I just sign her up and take her with me. She might have never done it on her own alone due to confusion and possibly being too proud to ask for help.

Gotta take care of our mums. ❤️
 

rhumbagirl

Senior Member
Good for you encouraging your family- I’m still working on an older brother. Rhumba you thought you had a moderate case of Covid and after effects-long COVID. Do you still think it was COVID and have you recovered fully-I’m reading long recovery times for some. my wife has several nurse friends who had COVID and still long COVID with lung issues? After your first Pfizer did you have any fever or feel cruddy or just a sore arm or nothing?
I know I had it because the symptoms were too unique and new to me, the most prominent being a prolonged deep dry cough that lasted 3 months. I also believe in viral load theory, and there's data supporting the notion that people who wear masks may still be exposed, but aren't exposed to enough of the virus (viral load) that overwhelms their immune response. And because they're being exposed to smaller amounts, they develop a sufficient immunity over time.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
So did it leave you with any permanent issues like exercise asthma when you bike or anything or you back to full capacity? That's interesting the load theory-one concern I have is are we limiting our exposure to other viruses that don't cause disease but activate our immunity to give us cross-protection. I was just reading the paper isolating the T cells that recognize SARS-COV-2 in asymptomatic people and their evidence likely cross-protection (it was CD 4 helper memory cells and no antibodies to spike) from a benign coronavirus. Lots of studies in kids how being too clean is actually unhealthy-activating our immunity increases our health apparently.

There is non-specific effects of developing natural immunity and vaccine immunity that are beneficial -"The central paradigm of vaccination is to generate resistance to infection by a specific pathogen when the vacinee is re-exposed to that pathogen. This paradigm is based on two fundamental characteristics of the adaptive immune system, specificity and memory. These characteristics come from the clonal specificity of T and B cells and the long-term survival of previously-encountered memory cells which can rapidly and specifically expand upon re-exposure to the same specific antigen. However, there is an increasing awareness of the concept, as well as experimental documentation of, heterologous immunity and cross-reactivity of adaptive immune lymphocytes in protection from infection. This awareness is supported by a number of human epidemiological studies in vaccine recipients and/or individuals naturally-resistant to certain infections, as well as studies in mouse models of infections, and indeed theoretical considerations regarding the disproportional repertoire of available T and B cell clonotypes compared to antigenic epitopes found on pathogens. Heterologous immunity can broaden the protective outcomes of vaccinations, and natural resistance to infections. Besides exogenous microbes/pathogens and/or vaccines, endogenous microbiota can also impact the outcomes of an infection and/or vaccination through heterologous immunity. Moreover, utilization of viral and/or bacterial vaccine vectors, capable of inducing heterologous immunity may also influence the natural course of many infections/diseases. This review article will briefly discuss these implications and redress the central dogma of specificity in the immune system." So we can be too isolated with a goal of reducing flu or coronaviruses with interventions and have collateral damage of weakening our population immunity-like kids had no immunity to H1N1 but a lot of adults had partial immunity-likely cross-reactivity or years of vaccinations to other flu strains.
 
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rhumbagirl

Senior Member
I might have to backtrack and say I really don't know if our immune systems strengthen as a result of gradual/intermittent viral load exposure. I did read a report that reduced viral load can increase your chance of survival.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
Because US population demographics and large aged population with waning immunity there’s a big call to start vaccinating older people much like kids so population immunity increases so we can reach herd immunity better for various pathogens. We probably get exposed to nasty viruses all the time at too low a level for disease but still enhances immunity.
 
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