Two Crashes as Hi Hats. . . hmmm, potential

Peedy

Senior Member
OK Bo Eder (et al), my New Years resolution was pretty simple after reading a number of posts about it: I took some of my crashes and tasked them as HHs in practice today. Sooo. . .

1. Any experiences out there in DRUMMERWORLD land?

2. Why do some combos work flawlessly while other favorite crashes sound like trash can lids together? Is it about weight, tone, sustain or a combination of things that makes it work?

3. Did you have to try several different setups until you were happy.

So far I've only tried two sets. First was two thin 18in crashes that sounded terrible. That was followed by two paper thin 16in crashes which, to my ear, sounded great. What I like is that the two 16s give me a really deep dark sound I don't quite have with any other HHs, while still sounding musical.

Sorry about the recording quality as it's just my iPhone 7 sitting on the snare, but it give you a good idea anyway.

Pete



https://youtu.be/vwC4HJzuXe4
 

mkelley

Member
I did this a few times:

15" Paiste Sound Formula Thin crash top w/ 2002 Heavy hat top
16" 2002 Thin Crash top w/ 16" 2002 Power Crash bottom.

The 15 has been my main hat for a decade and just got the 16 and it's blown my mind. The 15 was a random pairing and it stuck, the 16 was similar but I wanted a 16 set and traded a few things to get a thin and a power crash and their weights were a little heavier than the 2002 Black hats but I like these better.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
I've got a Sabian 15" medium crash that is exclusively a top hi hat; I pair it with either a Sizzle Hat bottom or a Zildjian Mastersound bottom depending on my mood. Either way sounds great.

I also have a 15" Sabian studio crash that I usually use as a crash but I've tried as a top hat. It works well with the Sizzle Hat bottom, but pairing it with the Mastersound is a bad idea because the edge is so thin.

In the past I've tried some random pairings and some definitely worked better than others. Based on what I tried I don't think it was simply too thin/too heavy that led to bad pairings but I honestly didn't fuss enough with the bad pairings to really figure it out.
 

Mongrel

Silver Member
I haven't paired two crashes, but I have paired crashes as tops over standard HH tops with good success before. I have also paired a fairly heavy 16" 1940s Zildjian under a 16" K dark crash. I like that combo too.

I see no reason not to experiment. All I would advise is to take into consideration the type of gig and how hard you plan on playing them.
 

Peedy

Senior Member
I haven't paired two crashes, but I have paired crashes as tops over standard HH tops with good success before. I have also paired a fairly heavy 16" 1940s Zildjian under a 16" K dark crash. I like that combo too.

I see no reason not to experiment. All I would advise is to take into consideration the type of gig and how hard you plan on playing them.
My brain starting turning after reading various opinions about it, but I was forced to act when I got to church and discovered I had left my bottom 15in HH bottom behind. I combo-ed the top and crash that sounded great together. I had figured that the crash (1947 Trans Stamp) could have been made for either.
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
So you know I’m using two 17” thin crashes as hats (for a few years now), and I love it. The one thing you will sacrifice is the “chick” sound, but the cool thing is the riding of the hats and they don’t pierce the sonic space. It’s a trade off, but a good one 😉
 

Peedy

Senior Member
So you know I’m using two 17” thin crashes as hats (for a few years now), and I love it. The one thing you will sacrifice is the “chick” sound, but the cool thing is the riding of the hats and they don’t pierce the sonic space. It’s a trade off, but a good one 😉
I do like how the "chick" sound can be artfully replaced with an almost drumroll / HH sound by slowing down my left foot on the pedal.

As for the 17s, how do you define "thin"? That means different things to different people. Weights? Also, what brands and how many years apart are they? And do they have a different or similar sound?

The 18s I tried (ugh) are a 1954 and 1964ish so I'm wondering if they aren't just two different sounds that aren't good together. 1265 and 1285 grams. Sonically the 54 is middle dark while the 64ish is "WOW, that's dark".

Pete
 

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
I do like how the "chick" sound can be artfully replaced with an almost drumroll / HH sound by slowing down my left foot on the pedal.

As for the 17s, how do you define "thin"? That means different things to different people. Weights? Also, what brands and how many years apart are they? And do they have a different or similar sound?

The 18s I tried (ugh) are a 1954 and 1964ish so I'm wondering if they aren't just two different sounds that aren't good together. 1265 and 1285 grams. Sonically the 54 is middle dark while the 64ish is "WOW, that's dark".

Pete
Mine are just stock A. Zildjian 17" Thin Crashes. They weigh about the same (although I don't know the weight in grams or anything), so I have one marked "B" on the inside so I know which one I use on the bottom. Both of the cymbals are from the late 1980s, as they have the same printed logo lettering. I even noticed that they're both actually 17.25" across! So I guess back then Zildjian gave you a little more.

You might just not be used to the sound? Like beer, I think it's an acquired taste. After I saw Steve Jordan using 17" hi-hats, I decided to investigate. And as he said, the bigger, thinner hi hats blend better inside the band, which is what I was looking for at the time. I hated hearing myself on play back wondering why the hi-hats (when I used 14" New Beats) just seemed to cut through everything. I thought of how the young surfers ride those little surfboards and they proceed to rip and shred every wave they get because they're so manuverable. And when I watch the older experienced surfers with their bigger boards, riding bigger waves and executing very smooth movements. That's what I was hearing between small vs. big hi hats. My 14" New Beats literally pierce into the music if I'm not careful, and like piccolos in a marching band, you hear them loud and clear simply because there's nothing else in their frequency range.

Having the 17" hats now, there's such a good blend naturally between the drums and the hi hats. Everything kind of stays in the same frequency range and the hats don't slice into the music stating the time like one of those ancient metronomes. Maybe try your combination a little longer to see if you don't get used to it. They're not 14", so they shouldn't sound anything at all like those.
 

makinao

Silver Member
I have a 1978 A. Zildjian thin crash 16" (811 gms.) top, and a Stagg SH china 16" bottom (900 gms.). Trashy nice. I tried a wuhan lion bottom but didn't like it.
 

johnwesley

Silver Member
I haven't paired two crashes, but I have paired crashes as tops over standard HH tops with good success before. I have also paired a fairly heavy 16" 1940s Zildjian under a 16" K dark crash. I like that combo too.

I see no reason not to experiment. All I would advise is to take into consideration the type of gig and how hard you plan on playing them.
You are exactly right about experimenting. There are no hard/fast rules. I'm not understanding so many questions like "Is that alright?" as though you need permission to use 18" crashes as hi hats, or snare drums as rack toms, etc. Try new things and if YOU like the sound and/or look, then do it. Remember (if you play gigs) the audience doesn't know what brand snare you use, or what it's made of. They haven't any clue if your hats are 13" or 16". The audience/recorded music listener just wants what makes them feel good. Or dead if it's death metal. This ain't the Indy 500 where you can crash and die if the engine blows due to bad mechanics. This is drumming. Have a good time.
 

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ineedaclutch

Platinum Member
My 16" hats are a Zildjian A Thin Crash over an A Medium Thin Crash weighing 1114 and 1182 respectively. I love them. They are just a bigger set of New Beats to my ear, and are my most used frankenhats.

My best sounding 17" pair are a Paiste Signature Fast Crash over a Zildjian A Med Crash. Very good for low volume, shaker-like sound. They sound hollow when playing on the bow due to the thinness of the top.

My best sounding 18" pair are a New Old Stamp Istanbul Zildjian K over a Zildjian Viennese. A Sabian HH Med Crash is a second place top for a clunkier sound.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Whatever makes you happy. Total freedom. No rules. Make your own up then break them lol. It's a wonderful concept. Have at it.
 

Peedy

Senior Member
Whatever makes you happy. Total freedom. No rules. Make your own up then break them lol. It's a wonderful concept. Have at it.
I totally hear ya. I've never really cared about what drummer uses what brand of equipment, I'm too old for marketing drivel. But what's constantly annoyed my more distant experiments (mostly with uber thin 30s Zildjians) has been that none of the combos sounded good to me. The early 50s 16 inches are the first pair that REALLY fit the bill and the 30s cymbals went back into duty as crash/splashes.
 

Peedy

Senior Member
. . .That's what I was hearing between small vs. big hi hats. My 14" New Beats literally pierce into the music if I'm not careful, and like piccolos in a marching band, you hear them loud and clear simply because there's nothing else in their frequency range.

Having the 17" hats now, there's such a good blend naturally between the drums and the hi hats. Everything kind of stays in the same frequency range and the hats don't slice into the music stating the time like one of those ancient metronomes. Maybe try your combination a little longer to see if you don't get used to it. They're not 14", so they shouldn't sound anything at all like those.
The 16 inch crashes I've been trying out is an amazing sounding pair of HHs. To be fair to Zildjian, they were made in a time when a drummer would typically just go to the local music store and pick out their own pairing that suited them.

As for the New Beats, I wouldn't give up on the idea just yet. I've got a pair of New Beats from the mid 1960s that's actually dark. They're hard to find but man do they work as advertised, and without most of the higher hertz levels of the 70s and later models.

Pete
 

Mustion

Senior Member
I recently tried a 16" K med-thin over a 16 "field" (extra-heavy) cymbal. Worked nice, but I ended up going back to regular hats.
 

Peedy

Senior Member
I recently tried a 16" K med-thin over a 16 "field" (extra-heavy) cymbal. Worked nice, but I ended up going back to regular hats.
The weird thing about me is that I never seem to have any “regular hats”. I pretty much have to move back and forth depending on what we’re playing or what season it is. On the upside, it does keep my wife from stroking out over my 4 or 5 pairs of HHs.
 

Swantanamo

New member
I've got two seperate pairs of 18" crashes that I've used as hats:
18" Zildjian Medium Thin A over a 18" Zildjian Constantinople Medium Light Hand Crash

18" Sabian Artisan Crash over a 18" Sabian Artisan Elite Medium Symphonic

The Sabians are a bit brighter and more articulate while the Zildjians are a bit darker and trashier, but I love both.
 
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