Tuning Tom Heads To The Same Pitch

ricky

Senior Member
Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I've been experimenting with different tunings on toms, and I found something I think I like for the floor tom (16" Ludwig Classic Maple), which as it turns out is approx B over Eb, or 121 over 152 or so, for those keeping score with a tunebot.

So anyway, I saw this vid on youtube of this guy playing some vintage Ludwigs, and I liked his tom sound, and in the comments, he says he's using Ambassadors on both sides, and tuned to the same pitch (listening, they are at around C and F for the rack and floor).

So I thought I'd try it, which is around 150 on both heads, or 85 together for the F.

It sounds awful!! Sort of dead, and the upper note is louder then the fundamental.

So I know people will say chuck out the tunebot and just use your ears...

but nevertheless, I'm wondering what the deal is...I thought tuning the heads to the same pitch should be the most resonant. Yet it sounds like utter crap.

Thanks for thoughts on this exciting Friday night!
 
I wonder if tuning at the same pitch works better at higher tunings. I usually prefer lowish tuning with the reso a few notes higher than the batter, just as you described.

But for really high bebop jazz tuning I find the reverse, the top head tighter than the reso works well to give a quick response, easy double strokes, a clear tone, etc.

So maybe there’s a magic in the middle where having both heads the same works best.
 
This is what I do personally: both heads of my toms are single ply G1 tuned approximately to the same pitch.
 
Always tune mine to the same pitch with a TuneBot. I love it. Full, resonant & just perfect :)
 
I’ve tried tighter batter, tighter reso and same pitch and settled on same pitch. The beauty of a TuneBot. 10 mil on both ends, frosted on batter, clear on the reso....will probably change to frosted at some point.

Anyway, from the drum stool, they sounded close enough, but mics would pick up different things. Sticking felt better with tighter batter, but sounded boingy under the mic. Tighter reso/looser batter felt the flappiest under the stick and had the least definition under the mics. Tuned the same and everything sounded the best under the and felt most even to sticks.

TuneBot shows that as tuned for maximum resonance and the more variation between batter and reso as minimum resonance. The difference was actually pretty minimal with my FTs. With no moongel or anything, FTs went from audibly resonating for 15 seconds to (tuned the same) to 13 seconds (tuned differently). The rack tom is a different story. That’s a noticeably shorter note if tuned for minimum resonance vs maximum, so it stay tuned to maximum (tuned the same) resonance consistently. I control the FT resonance with tiny bits of moongel placed strategically.

Another reason I like them tuned the same is it’s way faster for me to get to the right note without the TuneBot.

I’ve played around with higher and lower tunings and found the same results.

Based on the last DCP birch drum shootout though, I can’t imagine tuning something like the Yamaha RC with anything other than the same note top and bottom. There’s almost zero sustain there to begin with, but that’s just me.

OP, I can’t imagine why tuning to the same note would make your drums sound bad, but sound bad could mean different things to different people. Maybe it’s just not the right combo for the drum or heads.

I can’t imagine not tuning a Yamaha RC for maximum resonance, but bring in a George Way set, and I’d likely do the exact opposite, then pull out the 50 pound roll of duck tape! Those things don’t shut up! ;)
 
I generally tune to the medium range and, yeas, it's coated over clear Ambassadors tuned to the same pitch.

There is a limit to how low I'd tune a reso though if I went for something different.

Yes, a tuning device is a useful tool for cataloging things, but using your ears isn't is just about what works for a certain type of drum and type of heads as anything. There are too many variables for this to be black and white. Wanna tune exactly like your hero you better be using the same brand and model of drums and heads. In a certain room it might still be awful.

My tuning is pretty generic, though. It's the easiest range to tune to, unless you just simply really crank them and if it's out of control a tiny bit of dampening wil solve the problem.

Tuning really low can be a bit more finicky and older heads can't really handle it, so there's a chance the heads are just too worn out for that low tuning, especially if they're single plys.
 
The most often ignored factor in how your drums sound is the room itself. If you don't have an acoustically treated space (and I mean doing it right- not a bunch of cheap foam) you've likely got locations throughout the room where certain frequencies (particularly lower frequencies) aren't present. This could be where your ears are or where the drum is.

As I side note, I almost never tune batter and reso to the same pitch. We go into quite a bit of detail on all of this in our series, Sounds Like a Drum: https://www.youtube.com/soundslikeadrum
 
Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I've been experimenting with different tunings on toms, and I found something I think I like for the floor tom (16" Ludwig Classic Maple), which as it turns out is approx B over Eb, or 121 over 152 or so, for those keeping score with a tunebot.

So anyway, I saw this vid on youtube of this guy playing some vintage Ludwigs, and I liked his tom sound, and in the comments, he says he's using Ambassadors on both sides, and tuned to the same pitch (listening, they are at around C and F for the rack and floor).

So I thought I'd try it, which is around 150 on both heads, or 85 together for the F.

It sounds awful!! Sort of dead, and the upper note is louder then the fundamental.

So I know people will say chuck out the tunebot and just use your ears...

but nevertheless, I'm wondering what the deal is...I thought tuning the heads to the same pitch should be the most resonant. Yet it sounds like utter crap.

Thanks for thoughts on this exciting Friday night!

The drum dimensions matter. Smaller toms will usually exhibit more fundamental and sustain, compared to larger ones, when both heads are pitched the same. A 10" tom is very forgiving, in this sense.

The overall pitch matters, too! An F is on the high side of things (for rock, and not jazz, tuning). You might get more fundamental and sustain, with heads pitched the same, if the overall pitch were lower. What happens if you go down to a D overall? I have a vintage Ludwig with a 16X16 that loves to have the reso sing a higher note than the batter -- in order to get the fundamental to really sing out with good sustain. I usually tune it from C to E overall.

Some drummers like a lot of fundamental and sustain, and some don't. It sounds like you're the former, so maybe identical top and bottom pitches isn't for you, at least on this kit. A different kit, or different music, might dictate a different tuning approach. And that's ok.
 
Not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I've been experimenting with different tunings on toms, and I found something I think I like for the floor tom (16" Ludwig Classic Maple), which as it turns out is approx B over Eb, or 121 over 152 or so, for those keeping score with a tunebot.

So anyway, I saw this vid on youtube of this guy playing some vintage Ludwigs, and I liked his tom sound, and in the comments, he says he's using Ambassadors on both sides, and tuned to the same pitch (listening, they are at around C and F for the rack and floor).

So I thought I'd try it, which is around 150 on both heads, or 85 together for the F.

It sounds awful!! Sort of dead, and the upper note is louder then the fundamental.

So I know people will say chuck out the tunebot and just use your ears...

but nevertheless, I'm wondering what the deal is...I thought tuning the heads to the same pitch should be the most resonant. Yet it sounds like utter crap.

Thanks for thoughts on this exciting Friday night!

I'm not a Tunebot guy, but I always start with both heads more or less the same. But as I start to play, the bottom head eventually begins to get more tension than the top head because it will begin to flap, or at least not resonate as well (it's this sound that helps the drum to project). But, the bottom head only gets more tension in small degrees, it's not a huge difference. Just enough to keep it from getting flappy.

You just need to experiment more with new heads. For decades people have used ambassadors top and bottom simply because there wasn't a lot of choice back in the day, so if they can do it, you can do it. Andy Newmark back in the 80s swore by frosty ambassadors top and bottom and he had one of the best drum sounds ever - check it out on John Lennons "Double Fantasy" album.
 
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but nevertheless, I'm wondering what the deal is...I thought tuning the heads to the same pitch should be the most resonant. Yet it sounds like utter crap.

You have two sources of sound (top/bottom head), producing the exact same frequency range, that are precisely out of phase with one another.
 
You have two sources of sound (top/bottom head), producing the exact same frequency range, that are precisely out of phase with one another.

How would this happen in a push/pull environment? Wouldn’t they both move down, and then up in unison?
 
How would this happen in a push/pull environment? Wouldn’t they both move down, and then up in unison?

Yes. To demonstrate this....

Take the back off of your guitarist's closed-back speaker cab. Notice you've just lost ~6db. Remove the baffling behind your guitarist's open-back cab. Notice you've just lost 3db.

When both heads are tuned identically, Your tom is a speaker driven by a stick instead of an electromagnet.

Phase cancelation is typically undesirable in all but the most specific circumstances. If you have a friend at Yamaha, you might be able to have them get ahold of their R&D docs on the subject.
 
I’m not following. I know all about phase cancellation and used to build quite a few speaker boxes. With my toms tune to the same note on both ends, my mics and ears tell me they are in phase. Move one of my overheads over too far and I get phase cancellation. I’m just not hearing it with my toms.

Having said this, I can totally understand how some room dimensions could cause a phase issue though.
 
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Batter and reso heads move in unison. There's no sort of phase cancellation happening there. The concept doesn't apply, at all.
 
The drum dimensions matter. Smaller toms will usually exhibit more fundamental and sustain, compared to larger ones, when both heads are pitched the same. A 10" tom is very forgiving, in this sense.

The overall pitch matters, too! An F is on the high side of things (for rock, and not jazz, tuning). You might get more fundamental and sustain, with heads pitched the same, if the overall pitch were lower. What happens if you go down to a D overall? I have a vintage Ludwig with a 16X16 that loves to have the reso sing a higher note than the batter -- in order to get the fundamental to really sing out with good sustain. I usually tune it from C to E overall.

Some drummers like a lot of fundamental and sustain, and some don't. It sounds like you're the former, so maybe identical top and bottom pitches isn't for you, at least on this kit. A different kit, or different music, might dictate a different tuning approach. And that's ok.

The F is higher than I usually go, but the guy in the vid at F sounded good, deep and full, deeper than mine at a lower pitch!

Are all vintage Ludwigs 3 ply with the rounded edge?

I wish now I had gotten those instead of the Classic Maple with the modern edge. Still, I can't imagine that being the reason mine sounds terrible.

Usually I go for a deep sound and don't actually want too much sustain, but I've been experimenting....and now I'm wondering if the problem is these heads are just dead....they aren't that old but could it be that tuning them a lot has killed them?

I was going to get some new heads anyway, hopefully that will explain it.

Thanks everyone for the feedback!
 
Andy Newmark back in the 80s swore by forty ambassadors top and bottom and he had one of the best drum sounds ever - check it out on John Lennons "Double Fantasy" album.

Yes, love that!

My aim in general is usually Ringo, or some various solo Beatle sound...Imagine, etc.
 
The most often ignored factor in how your drums sound is the room itself. If you don't have an acoustically treated space (and I mean doing it right- not a bunch of cheap foam) you've likely got locations throughout the room where certain frequencies (particularly lower frequencies) aren't present. This could be where your ears are or where the drum is.

As I side note, I almost never tune batter and reso to the same pitch. We go into quite a bit of detail on all of this in our series, Sounds Like a Drum: https://www.youtube.com/soundslikeadrum

I don't think it's the room.

I will check out the video as soon as I can.

Why don't you go for the same pitch?
 
I always do same pitch on my toms with the tunebot.
Using the calculator, I pick max resonance, and -2 on the pitch, and I get a great sound out in clubs. It also sounds completely awful in my drum room in the basement. So what the other people were saying about the room is often true.
 
Batter and reso heads move in unison. There's no sort of phase cancellation happening there. The concept doesn't apply, at all.

Correct. If there is phase cancellation it would be the travel through the shell and would primarily depend on shell depth and the frequency the head(s) are tumed to.
 
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