Trading Fours

SwiftZephyr

Member
I'd like to know any advice that would help me improve my counting while in jazz time. How can I become aware of what measure I am in? Need help because I'm going to be auditioning for some jazz ensembles at my college.
 
It's perfectly acceptable to keep it simple in your jazz solos. Don't go trying to blaze around the toms if you're going to get out of time and give the band a bad cue, rather, use dynamics and the bass drum to your advantage! Also, a bit of shameless plug for the awesomest basic jazz drumming book ever penned... Get "The Art of Bop Drumming" by John Riley. I guarantee that playing through the comping excersizes and the solo ideas will help you with your independence and being able to COUNT WHAT YOU PLAY.

Besides that, I have a few other tips as well. Depending on the style of the song, I'll occasionally put "four on the floor" (meaning using a bass drum on all 4 beats) AND play hi-hat with my foot on all four beats (the hi-hat either needs to be loose or loosely played to get a sufficient swish) while playing more intricate rhythms on the toms, snare, and cymbals. If you've practiced this where it won't slow down, the four-beat with your feet can certainly help establish mental time, also providing a really textured backdrop for your solo.

I would also advocate practicing alternating triplets on a practice pad for HOURS if necessary to get them as fast as possible and then working on moving those alternating strokes to different drums. While they are only triplets, and there is no fancy sticking, they can sound strikingly complex when played across different surfaces of the drum set.
Then, you can begin to work with moving other triplet-stickings across the set (RLLRLL, RRLRRL, and vice versa, RLLRRLR, and the hardest for me: doubling triplets with the accent on the downbeats RRLLRRLLRRLL) and splitting different notes to the bass drum. The point of it is: triplets can sound complex but be actually very simple to play.

Good luck!
 
I'd like to know any advice that would help me improve my counting while in jazz time. How can I become aware of what measure I am in? Need help because I'm going to be auditioning for some jazz ensembles at my college.


Know the tune and be aware of where the melody/progression is at. When soloing, think of the head and how to sculpt your impromptu masterpiece in relationship to the music.

BTW, what exactly is "jazz time"? Is that like, "Hey, I just got back from a trip to the east coast and I'm still on New York Time."? Or, is it like, "He's always late. He's on musician's time." I ask because you used it like it's a common term, and yet I am unfamiliar with it. Please enlighten me to your vernacular...
 
I also want to know what "jazz time" is. Strange phrase, as jazz is played in all tempos, time signatures, etc.

As far as counting, there's no magic trick. You just have to practice, and keep counting in your head. After a while, you won't actually have to count (1, 2, 3, 4), but will be able to "feel" what beat you are on, by either keeping the head (of the song) in your head, or by just knowing where you're at, because you are counting, but it's such a "back of the mind" thing that you don't notice it.

That's where true freedom comes from, in my mind. When I'm soloing, I can go completely off, play stuff in different time signatures, etc, but in the far back of my head, so far back that it doesn't mess with the stuff I am playing, there's a constant "1, 2, 3, 4" pulse, so I can always come back in on the one (or whatever beat I want to come back in on).

Also, why'd you call this thread "trading fours"? Trading fours is the technique used between two soloists who "split up" a solo, each playing four bars at a time...kind of like a "cutting contest." In other words, instead of a 16 bar drum solo and a 16 bar trumpet solo, the drummer will solo for four bars, then the trupeter (usually building on the idea in the drum solo), then back to the drummer, then back to the trumpet player, etc.
 
Also, why'd you call this thread "trading fours"? Trading fours is the technique used between two soloists who "split up" a solo, each playing four bars at a time...kind of like a "cutting contest." In other words, instead of a 16 bar drum solo and a 16 bar trumpet solo, the drummer will solo for four bars, then the trupeter (usually building on the idea in the drum solo), then back to the drummer, then back to the trumpet player, etc.

I assume he meant playing across the measure in different time groupings within an overall 4/4 (e.g. four groups of three). I have heard this called trading fours before - but might have misinterpreted what they meant.
 
I assume he meant playing across the measure in different time groupings within an overall 4/4 (e.g. four groups of three). I have heard this called trading fours before - but might have misinterpreted what they meant.

Interesting. I certainly know the technique you're talking about, and use it all the time, but have never heard it called that. "Playing over the bar line" is probably the term I've heard most for that.
 
I assume he meant playing across the measure in different time groupings within an overall 4/4 (e.g. four groups of three). I have heard this called trading fours before - but might have misinterpreted what they meant.

I believe that is a hemiola.
 
There are several recodrings that are really challenging to keep track of, chorus and time wise. For example, Dave Holland's Nemesis, on the Extensions album. It is in 11/4, and they play SO much around with the barline, it's a great exercise to keep the bar straight in your head, especially during the solos. that whole album is full of time riddles, absolutely great for what you are after.

Also, Herbie Hancock's New directions in Music, with Mike Brecker, Al Foster etc has So What/Impressions on it. They play it very, very slowly, and they stretch SO much in the choruses, starting solos way into the new chorus etc. That recording will stretch that ability for sure, too!

But the hardcore exercise for this is the 2 to 50, which is all about counting bars. If you do this with integrity (starting over if you lose your place), you will quickly have an iron hard sense of the chorus in any song, guaranteed.

Casper
 
Know the tune and be aware of where the melody/progression is at. When soloing, think of the head and how to sculpt your impromptu masterpiece in relationship to the music.

BTW, what exactly is "jazz time"? Is that like, "Hey, I just got back from a trip to the east coast and I'm still on New York Time."? Or, is it like, "He's always late. He's on musician's time." I ask because you used it like it's a common term, and yet I am unfamiliar with it. Please enlighten me to your vernacular...


"Jazz Time" is basically your basic cymbal time, or the jazz ride pattern. It's just a term most of the professors use when talking about jazz. I suppose it's supposed to sound more academic. Not really sure.
 
Know the tune and be aware of where the melody/progression is at. When soloing, think of the head and how to sculpt your impromptu masterpiece in relationship to the music.

This is the challenge see. When auditioning I'm going to be asked to trade fours to a tune I'm going to sight read. Meaning it's the first time I'm ever going to hear or see the music. What I'm asking is for how to develop this skill to count, or if possible, commit to feeling the pulse of four bars automatically. So far I'm getting great responses. Thanks guys!

I just want to hear maybe a little more input and advice if it's not too much to ask all you Jazz heads out there.
 
What I'm asking is for how to develop this skill to count, or if possible, commit to feeling the pulse of four bars automatically. .

Don't know if it will help you but for me its all about keeping the hi hat going solid or failing that just nodding my head in time with the 4/4.
 
I keep time with my left foot. I do some exercises with my left foot to help gain independence with all my limbs, which in turn helps me keep time more accurately. I'm sure every drummer here who plays any sort of jazz music at all has at some point practiced these drills. Please bare with me as I attempt to explain this exercise over the internet. I don't know if you're left-handed or right-handed, but I'm going to assume you're playing on a right-handed kit.

On the ride, play your basic swing pattern.

With your left foot on the hats, try playing only on 2's and 4's. Do this until your comfortable with it. Basic, yeah? You can probably already do this.

After that, start mixing it up. Play triplets with your left foot.
1+a2+a3+a4+a.... blahblahblah.

Then, take away parts of the triplet.

1 a 3 a 1 a 3 a

Or.... 2 a 4 a 2 a 4 a

You can get all sorts of combinations going. When you're more comfortable, you can throw in the snare and bass, but I won't get into that at this point. I wish I had a sheet music program or something, this would be way easier to explain. :)
 
I'm concluding that everyone is saying to just keep the hi hat going. I'm assuming it's more a practice and develop the skill thing. Or maybe I should just right down a compilation of four bar licks to use for a situation of trading fours. I don't know I always end up too short like I end up at the a of 4 on the fourth bar or I drag into the other instruments' four bars.
 
Care to elaborate? I have heard this excercise referred to before, and infer it's on the level of big exercises like the Stone Killer or running table-of-time style subdivisions. What does it entail?

You set your metronome to 120 quarters per minute.
Play 2 bars of left hand quarters, 2 bars of RH quarters, then 4 on the left, 4 on the right, then 6, and so forth, until you have done 50 bars with each hand. If you lose count, start over. takes about 50 minutes.

Casper
 
You set your metronome to 120 quarters per minute. Play 2 bars of left hand quarters, 2 bars of RH quarters, then 4 on the left, 4 on the right, then 6, and so forth, until you have done 50 bars with each hand.

Fifty consecutive bars, I might add. The smaller chunks add up to 50 fairly quickly, but that's not the point (or indeed the duration) of the exercise.
 
I'm concluding that everyone is saying to just keep the hi hat going. I'm assuming it's more a practice and develop the skill thing. Or maybe I should just right down a compilation of four bar licks to use for a situation of trading fours. I don't know I always end up too short like I end up at the a of 4 on the fourth bar or I drag into the other instruments' four bars.

Work on the hi-hat, but most importantly, work on counting and use a metronome. Work on your vocabulary while counting. Playing and practicing phrases that go over the barline while counting in four is a great way to develop your control of time. Just pick a phrase of three, for instance, and work on it for extended periods of time. Maintaining two overlapping time feels is a difficult task at first, but once you nail it, your sense of time will become more solid and instinctual.
 
Okay we're talking about trading fours here, correct? Listen to this song. Red Garland and Philly Jo Jones trade fours after the bass solo, around 4:20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RkMsdlfK6A

This is a classic example. Kind of a corny tune, but a classic example of trading fours.
 
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