Tony Williams

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jay norem

Guest
That's amazing, Stan, because I was exactly the same age when I started. Yep, the guys who had been around the block were the best teachers a cocky youngster could have had. Real world stuff, and every night I got to try out something new.
How do the young guys do it now? When I was a kid there were nightclubs everywhere. You played six nights a week, four sets a night. Talk about an education, man.
But we're going to have to accept that jazz will be taken however it's taken by the young guys who choose to play it. There aren't any more nightclubs, no more late-night jam sessions, all that's gone. In fact it sounds almost corny talking about it.
All I have is my own little piece of turf, and that's mine. The young guys, they're going to have to get their own, and you can be sure that they aren't going to do it the way we did.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
That's amazing, Stan, because I was exactly the same age when I started. Yep, the guys who had been around the block were the best teachers a cocky youngster could have had. Real world stuff, and every night I got to try out something new.
How do the young guys do it now? When I was a kid there were nightclubs everywhere. You played six nights a week, four sets a night. Talk about an education, man.
But we're going to have to accept that jazz will be taken however it's taken by the young guys who choose to play it. There aren't any more nightclubs, no more late-night jam sessions, all that's gone. In fact it sounds almost corny talking about it.
All I own is my own little piece of turf, and that's mine. The young guys, they're going to have to get their own, and you can be sure that they aren't going to do it the way we did.
Played drums drums since I was 9 but the jazz bug bit very hard at 18 when I first heard recordings of Elvin Jones and desired to play with other more seasoned players who knew this music far better than me at the time. Lots of jazz jam sessions back then even in my small old home town.


Agreed on your other points Jay.

You have to be happy and believe in what your doing, set a good example {musically} for others and also be willing to let the future of the music decide it's own path.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
I never said once I was the one authority on the subject only someone who likes to see jazz related info properly presented with some truth related to the people who love and honor those who came before and what they offered to the music and the core of what is jazz music..
No, I was the one that said that. But the kid will learn the difference between who knows the scoop and whose just Ann Coulter without all the hair.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
No, I was the one that said that. But the kid will learn the difference between who knows the scoop and whose just Ann Coulter without all the hair.
Well thanks for the kind words Ken and thanks for the laugh on the Ann Coulter comment :}

Certainly nothing wrong with really digging Tony that's for sure. A lifetime of collected knowledge from his legacy to be studied for anyone interested in digging deep. Same goes with Elvin, Jack, Art, Roy, Max etc...
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
We're lucky to have you here, Stan. Not only because of your geat knowledge of jazz drumming; but also because you remind us that jazz is something very special. I've always been a big jazz and fan and a big rock fan. I always knew that jazz was the real deal since I got my first Gene Krupa album at 10. That's not to say that rock cannot often rise to the occassion of the great jazz masters. But in jazz, musical exploration is going on at the highest level. Seems cliche to say that. Maybe too Marsalis for some ears. :) But man, why do we really have to say that?
 
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wy yung

Guest
I don't really know what best means in music, but people seem to have a need to place great musicians in some kind of sequential histological perspective .
Agreed. Strange isn't it that people seem to need a "best".

Tony was awesome. As was Buddy, Elvin, Klook, Papa Jo, Philly etc etc etc.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
Nothing wrong at all with prefering Tony Williams' work. And it's not that big a deal if you make a historically innacurate statement here or there. NOBODY on this forum is the ultimate authority on jazz or any other kind of drumming or music.
All I'd ask is this: what good does it do to focus on the style of one drummer? Your chances of playing in the kind of situations that Tony Williams found himself in are mostly non-existent. You're never going to be in anywhere close to a scene like that. See, the need for another Elvin Jones or Tony Williams just doesn't exist.
So what about your own drumming? Do you intend to play jazz, and if so what kind, and how? So much jazz these days is basically just a singer backed by a trio, playing rubbish like "When Sonny Gets Blue" to a roomfull of drunks. Not much need for Tony Williams-style drumming there.
We tend to get, I think, a little too drum-centric, and really it's not doing anyone any good. Approaching jazz doesn't require a history degree, and it doesn't require that you play like anyone else. What it does require is a familiarity with the music, a realistic attitude, a certain amount of chops, and maybe, perhaps, some sort of suicidal tendency! Oh, and a lot of humility!
All this is just another unknown jazz drummer's opinion.

some wise words my friend!..i personally dont try and copy other musicians but incorporate their type of playing in mine.......nobody will be able to recreate the magic that the drummers back then produced.....rock and hip hop drummers are becoming too prominent
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
some wise words my friend!..i personally dont try and copy other musicians but incorporate their type of playing in mine.......nobody will be able to recreate the magic that the drummers back then produced.....rock and hip hop drummers are becoming too prominent

But the legacy of what they left still carries on today for those holding the burning jazz torch alive and well with their own personal slant on it such as Brian, Cindy, Eric, Kenny etc..

There are still people putting out the full on real {uncompromised} jazz deal based on what Tony, Elvin, Philly, Art etc.. left us in drumming and the music.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
But the legacy of what they left still carries on today for those holding the burning jazz torch alive and well with their own personal slant on it such as Brian, Cindy, Eric, Kenny etc..

There are still people putting out the full on real {uncompromised} jazz deal based on what Tony, Elvin, Philly, Art etc.. left us in drumming and the music.
drummers like elvin and tony paved the way for drummers today so that they will have a stage to play on....
sadly the amount of people keeping the torch alive are decreasing, there just isnt as much of a demand for jazz like there was in those days.
i mightnt be able to coment on this as i dont know what the current jazz music is like reall, apart from hearing the odd bits, i listen to the old jazz songs.......but since i havnt heard many new ones it seems as though jazz is becoming less popular because of the lack of new inovative jazz songs.......you could very well prove me wrong on this though....

newer jazz will get more listeners....not many people that arnt familiar with jazz will go digging it up
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
drummers like elvin and tony paved the way for drummers today so that they will have a stage to play on....
sadly the amount of people keeping the torch alive are decreasing, there just isnt as much of a demand for jazz like there was in those days.
i mightnt be able to coment on this as i dont know what the current jazz music is like reall, apart from hearing the odd bits, i listen to the old jazz songs.......but since i havnt heard many new ones it seems as though jazz is becoming less popular because of the lack of new inovative jazz songs.......you could very well prove me wrong on this though....

newer jazz will get more listeners....not many people that arnt familiar with jazz will go digging it up
It's a underground music now let's face it in the world of Britney, Paris and the one minute hamburger:} No instant gratification here....

The people striving to keep it alive are still making ways to take the music in further directions but still keep it real and interesting without compromise whether the vast population is aware or knows about it or not and the jazz performers are still packing concert venues when they tour for the listeners who want to hear the music. Check out what Dave Holland is doing with the music at present as one of many examples. Things are still moving along with a sense of vitality and innovation without compromise

It will be a tough go for jazz and jazz players always has been in many ways but the people who love the music and are commited to it each in their own small way will keep it going by hook or by crook regardless.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Putting things is perspective, you can take opera as an example. There hasn't been a great opera produced since perhaps Puccini's Turandot in 1926; but opera did not reach its peak until Pavarotti and the Three Tenors 50-60 years later. There are probably more operas being produced today than any other time in history.

Jazz has actually faired better in the sense that there are many people creating quality jazz now. And there is definitetly more jazz going on today than any other time in history, and on a global level.

Historically, music had never seen the type of mass popularity associated with The post-Beatles world. 'Bird' never played Shea, at least not to my knowledge. Well, it wasn't built yet. He never played Yankee Stadium. I think they asked Monk but he couldn't work it out with their playing schedule. :)

Great jazz was always an underground movement and people who want great music are still turning to jazz. Then there's Brittany and Pink, those lil hotties. Well, you know I hear all the time about how the great days of AC/DC and Aerosmith are gone and Brittany and pink are here. Rock Band is bringing that great era back. Yeah, Brittany sucks but AC/DC is great. It all gets absurd for me, esp when these guys are still parading around like school boys at 55, or the Stones are still complaining about not getting recognition after they have dominated the music industry for 40 years. But you can listen to a great jazz ensemble like Dave Hollands' as Stan mentioned, and know that there is some great music going on there.
 

Funky Crêpe

Silver Member
Putting things is perspective, you can take opera as an example. There hasn't been a great opera produced since perhaps Puccini's Turandot in 1926; but opera did not reach its peak until Pavarotti and the Three Tenors 50-60 years later. There are probably more operas being produced today than any other time in history.

Jazz has actually faired better in the sense that there are many people creating quality jazz now. And there is definitetly more jazz going on today than any other time in history, and on a global level.

Historically, music had never seen the type of mass popularity associated with The post-Beatles world. 'Bird' never played Shea, at least not to my knowledge. Well, it wasn't built yet. He never played Yankee Stadium. I think they asked Monk but he couldn't work it out with their playing schedule. :)

Great jazz was always an underground movement and people who want great music are still turning to jazz. Then there's Brittany and Pink, those lil hotties. Well, you know I hear all the time about how the great days of AC/DC and Aerosmith are gone and Brittany and pink are here. Rock Band is bringing that great era back. Yeah, Brittany sucks but AC/DC is great. It all gets absurd for me, esp when these guys are still parading around like school boys at 55, or the Stones are still complaining about not getting recognition after they have dominated the music industry for 40 years. But you can listen to a great jazz ensemble like Dave Hollands' as Stan mentioned, and know that there is some great music going on there.
ive been listening to dave holland since yeaterday.....heard a lot of his stuff
hes a great bass player, and a superb band leader.....you an see the passion in his face when he plays.....i doubt you'll see that on a rockers face, the only emotion you see on his face is anger!
i stand corrected saying that theres no great popular jazz today!.....i especially love his drummer billy kilson.....hes got so much soul
 

aydee

Platinum Member
Stan, whats he doing on the Sister Cheryl beat... its like a samba but not quite, or like half a bossa.... what going on there?
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Bosphorous,

Tony wanted the Miles Davis quartet to open for The Beatles. But Miles wouldn't have it. he was a big rock fan, and credited himself with the invention of jazz rock fusion.


As far as Sister Cheryl, sounds like a samba. It's a half samba, with a jazz twist on the rocks. :)
 
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Steamer

Platinum Member
Stan, whats he doing on the Sister Cheryl beat... its like a samba but not quite, or like half a bossa.... what going on there?
I can play it and I also have it written out Abe. It's a mix of a double time feel on the ride being a combined1/8th note on 1 and the + and ah each beat on the ride played even per beat {think up tempo swing ride pattern} with the high hat on the + of each beat with back and forth patterns between the open snare {snares off} and the bass drum. Last 1/16th note of beat 1 followed by beat 2, last 1/16th note of beat 3 followed by beat 4 for the snare pattern. 1 and the + of 2, 3 and the + of 4 on the bass drum.

Put it all together and you have something Tony himself came up with it as far as I can can tell that's a cool quasi latin/swing hybrid feel thing.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Just got inside the Traps this evening. Nothing new but some interesing things who don't have every Downbeatwith Tony on the cover. He talks about the difference between Beats and rhythms, and says how in the 1950s, drummers were still just beat keepers in rock and roll, so taht is what attracted him to jazz. Jazz was a language where you could develop a drumming syntax and not just be a beat keeper. I would wonder how Sister Cheryl played into that idea. The mag really doesn't explain it well; but it would seem that he is talking about a metamorphoses of some type where a beat is just a repetition of an basic pre-existing idea. But with Tony, not only is the groove original; it is elastic and flows in out and of the time with subtle changes in poly-rhythms, dynamics, accents and fills.

He also says that one of the strenths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.
 

Steamer

Platinum Member
Just got inside the Traps this evening. Nothing new but some interesing things who don't have every Downbeatwith Tony on the cover. He talks about the difference between Beats and rhythms, and says how in the 1950s, drummers were still just beat keepers in rock and roll, so taht is what attracted him to jazz. Jazz was a language where you could develop a drumming syntax and not just be a beat keeper. I would wonder how Sister Cheryl played into that idea. The mag really doesn't explain it well; but it would seem that he is talking about a metamorphoses of some type where a beat is just a repetition of an basic pre-existing idea. But with Tony, not only is the groove original; it is elastic and flows in out and of the time with subtle changes in poly-rhythms, dynamics, accents and fills.

He also says that one of the strenths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.


Like this Ken :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTUBecbl7Gs&feature=related

Saw this particular group 3 times live and Sister Cheryl was always one of the high points of each show.

For a great well mastered live recording of it check out the CD "TOKYO LIVE" with Tony and this same group from the clip if still in print {?}.
 

aydee

Platinum Member
...one of the strengths of Miles was that he did not get intimidated working with great players, and saw there success with the audience as a positive reflection on him as a leader.
He did shove Wynton M off stage at Avery Fischer Hall, once....... : - I
 
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