Tone &or pitch of a cymbal?

Auspicious

Auspicious

Silver Member
Hello everyone, I am back tonight with a small but interesting question. (for me at least)

A couple of weeks or even months ago, well, I can't tell the difference between the tone or the pitch of a cymbal, I tried to find some info about this on the internet but really it's not too conclusive, some people talk about the tone but often it's about the pitch.

When a person talks about tone, they don't really define what tone is.

A bright or a dark cymbal, this part is well understood, I want to hit a cymbal and be able to differentiate the pitch from the tone clearly, what is what.

There is a probability that Pitch = Tone also but I am not 100% sure about that.
 
In general music terms, the pitch is the lowest (fundamental) frequency produced by an instrument or voice. The tone is the combination of all the frequencies including the overtones (harmonics). eg a guitar and a banjo playing the note C will have the same pitch, but different tones.
With cymbals, there are so many overtones that the fundamental pitch is masked, and the harder you hit it the more overtones there are. The fundamental pitch is the low hum you can hear with your ear right next to the cymbal as the sound dies away.
 
Tone incorporates much more than just pitch. Is the cymbal bright? Dark? Dry? Shimmery? Trashy? It's the combination of these characteristics that defines a cymbal's tone. As for pitch, an easy way to hear the fundamental pitch of any cymbal is to strike it on the edge, with the stick roughly perpendicular to the plane of the cymbal.
 
I wouldn't tie tone to pitch. Two completely different things in my mind.

It's hard to describe sound. I listen for the pitch I want in a cymbal, but if I don't like the tone, sorry Charlie.

Describing tone is like describing the taste of eggs for instance
 
The word tone by itself doesn't have any meaning to me in relation to cymbals. The type of sound a cymbal produces is a tessitura-- a range of pitches that creates both the impression of pitch and the tone color of a cymbal. With cymbals pitch is more or of a pitch area than an actual tempered note.
 
toddbishop said:
The word tone by itself doesn't have any meaning to me in relation to cymbals. The type of sound a cymbal produces is a tessitura-- a range of pitches that creates both the impression of pitch and the tone color of a cymbal. With cymbals pitch is more or of a pitch area than an actual tempered note.
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I also agree...cymbals do not really make an actual "note"...or at least are not meant to...we now have digital technology that can assign and read actual notes to cymbals.

crotales, which are a tuned cymbal, but that sound more like a bell, are the exception...and i also think nipple gongs are tuned to some of the Asian scale notes

though, if memory serves me, I think the Sabian Radia cymbals that Terry Bozzio uses are tuned to specific notes...
 
Echoing what others said, “tone” is like “character”. Tone is a subjective impression of all the many qualities of a sound, including all the different harmonics, which rise and fall in different patterns during each sound moment. Does a certain painting look joyful or grim? That’s tone.

Pitch is the frequency of the single most audible and identifiable wave in the sound. Usually the lowest frequency (the “fundamental”) is the strongest, but sometimes a resonant “wolf note” will occur with one of the upper harmonics, making it more noticeable. That’s why sometimes it’s hard to identify the pitch, because our brains cannot always sort out which frequency is strongest. Cymbals are about the most harmonically complex instruments out there, so there’s a lot for our brains to try and unscramble.
 
I generally think of cymbal tone in terms of overtones, undertones, and fundamental tone.
The (perceived) fundamental tone is the dominant ringing tone of the cymbal.
Overtones are ringing tones higher in pitch than the fundamental. Undertones are lower in pitch than the fundamental.
Overtones and undertones make up the "complexity" of the cymbal.

As examples, the famous Paiste "glassy" sound comes from overtones. The dryier, darker sound of Zildjian K comes from mostly undertones.
Meinl Pure Allow series is a good example of very strong fundamental tone and few overtones or undertones.
 
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Technically speaking, undertones only happen when you add a resonating chamber or other physical modification that creates the perceived effect of dividing the fundamental. But the ping and shimmer of the upper harmonics can be so separate sounding from the roar below, that it is easy to think of the pingy part as the main sound and the low roar as an undertone.

Also this is a good illustration of how complex cymbals are as wave sources, because they generate a whole spread of “fundamentals” at the same time, and all of them generate their own spread of overtones, and this causes the “unpitched” or “noise” quality of a cymbal sound. So it could be argued that a certain low fundamental starts off less strongly than a certain higher fundamental, but their energy dissipates at different rates, creating the perception of a tone lower than what we initially heard as “the fundamental” or primary pitch.
 
To me, pitch is how high or low the "note" of a cymbal is. Tone is the overall sound impression. I love the tone of the 21 inch AA Bash Ride. Peace and goodwill.
 
bongoman said:
Echoing what others said, “tone” is like “character”. Tone is a subjective impression of all the many qualities of a sound, including all the different harmonics, which rise and fall in different patterns during each sound moment. Does a certain painting look joyful or grim? That’s tone.

Pitch is the frequency of the single most audible and identifiable wave in the sound. Usually the lowest frequency (the “fundamental”) is the strongest, but sometimes a resonant “wolf note” will occur with one of the upper harmonics, making it more noticeable. That’s why sometimes it’s hard to identify the pitch, because our brains cannot always sort out which frequency is strongest. Cymbals are about the most harmonically complex instruments out there, so there’s a lot for our brains to try and unscramble.
Click to expand...

it took me a while, but I learned about, and experienced all of this tuning tympani...once I could hear the different overtones interacting tuning tymps, I could hear them almost anywhere

bud7h4 said:
I generally think of cymbal tone in terms of overtones, undertones, and fundamental tone.
The fundamental tone is the dominant ringing tone of the cymbal.
Overtones are ringing tones higher in pitch than the fundamental. Undertones are lower in pitch than the fundamental.
Overtones and undertones make up the "complexity" of the cymbal.

As examples, the famous Paiste "glassy" sound comes from overtones. The dryier, darker sound of Zildjian K comes from mostly undertones.
Meinl Pure Allow series is a good example of very strong fundamental tone and few overtones or undertones.
Click to expand...

I think of cymbal sound differences as:
dark or light tone
rate of attack
rate of decay
volume related to thickness/density

also, knowing how hammering and lathing, bell shape and size, and body bow and taper alter the sound waves is a HUGE help. Anymore, i can almost tell how a cymbal is going to sound by just looking at it
 
By following this thread, I now have a much better idea of how to approach: Pitch, Tone, Timbre and Tessitura.

The thread was extremely instructive, I see the boundaries now, I'll take many parts of this thread to refine my own interpretation of the sound of a cymbal and come up with something well balanced.

:)

Thanks.
 
it is funny for me as well, because in my rock set up, I almost always bought cymbals for what they would be used for:

left side crash #1 is my "stop crash" - the one I use if I do crash chokes, so I needed it to be bright, speak quickly, and be easily stoppable with a quick grab <---18" Zildjian A Thin Crash

left side crash #2 is my "punk rock basher" - the one I bash on for real loud/aggressive parts, so I needed a real loud, durable, and quick speaker there <--- 16" Zildjian A Rock Crash

right side crash is just used for normal "end of the fill" stuff, so I could get a little more "arty" with this one, and got the Zildjian 19" K Dark Medium thin crash to off set the brightness on my left side.

I also use the left side crashes as regular "end of the fill" crashes as well

I got the 20" Zildjian A Rock Ride in 1979 to emulate the ride cymbal sounds I was hearing on my rock albums...was my first "legit" cymbal purchase as a kid

I got my 15" Zildjian A Quick Beat hi hats as a gift from Jerome Dillon of NIN when he was in town one time....at the drum store when I was going in to actually buy a pair. Long story, but we were neighborhood friends back in the day, and he was in town for a few weeks between sessions out in LA...

I have 6 and 8" Zildjian A Splashes b/c of Omar Hakim and Manu Katche, and what they were doing with Sting back in the late 80's...I wanted that same effect
 
@Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX Thanks for describing the purpose for all of your cymbals, it opens up my horizon to something different. The obvious is often not the obvious for me.

I am interested to hear the sounds of these cymbals, if you feel like shooting a video of this eventually, to see about their (pitches - tones &or timbre) or Tessitura.

I could test myself with a brief analysis of what I believe I can hear.
 
Auspicious said:
@Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX Thanks for describing the purpose for all of your cymbals, it opens up my horizon to something different. The obvious is often not the obvious for me.

I am interested to hear the sounds of these cymbals, if you feel like shooting a video of this eventually, to see about their (pitches - tones &or timbre) or Tessitura.

I could test myself with a brief analysis of what I believe I can hear.
Click to expand...

I will actually try to do that on Thurs or Friday of this week!!
 
Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX said:
I will actually try to do that on Thurs or Friday of this week!!
Click to expand...
Ok I will check it out for sure, we often see a collection of cymbals in the form of a list or pictures, textual description of sounds but rarely the real audio/video evidences of how awesome the sound is.

Me for instance, purchasing cymbals was almost the result of improvisation, only lately I discovered that a second crash was required and by looking at my cymbals, the result is highly interesting.. my 19" crash has a much lower pitch then my 22" ride, I use both of them all the time depending of the tune, while being different, they complement each other.

It's above my comprehension, why is it working?

I simply can't explain, seems like many parts can be mixed and work together..

Same thing I listen to some boring jazz albums.. then by playing a tune WOW it's super fun to play.. can't explain that either. Listening to it is boring but playing it is super fun.

Surprises all the time.
 
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Nobody want's to add relevant comments to my questions..?

I know it might be pushing a bit of conflict but this is my guide line so far:

Tone can't be used.
Timbre should be used instead of tone.
Tessitura should be used instead of timbre
We didn't talked about Tone quality.
Yet I have some users giving me answers about tone.

I need to pick a school of thought, but it's difficult.


:(
 
I think it’s an error to look too much at the words, because words are a clumsy and inadequate way to communicate something both subtle and complex. Maybe look at it as a tool for refining your search; for example if I go in to a store and say I want a cymbal that is dark and low pitched, they should understand enough to not recommend a Paiste 2002 heavy crash. So that’s one layer. But there might be a low pitched 2002 thin ride; or you might look at a Dark Energy Mk I, darker tone but not necessarily low pitched. You see how we can get closer to the target by using words that steer us in the right direction, but it’s still not a precise map.

An example from my own cymbal search: I wanted a very dark but very crisp set of hihats. Everyone and their cousin responded “get the Paiste Dark Crisp model”. But when I tried them, they didn’t seem dark to me at all. Maybe by some stretch they were darker than Paiste’s brightest lines, but they were nowhere near as dark as an ordinary set of old Zildjians.
 
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