The use of the wrists in double strokes

Bill Bachman has the best double (and triple) strokes I’ve ever seen. Monstrous! He advocates 3 different techniques for 3 different tempo ranges: free stroke for slower tempos, open/closed or what he calls ally-oop for middle range tempos, and forearm pumping with no wrist and minimal finger movement for fast doubles. Here are couple of videos where he demos his doubles and triples:

Doubles starting at about 6:35:

Triples starting at beginning:
Yep, you're right. Absoluter monster. Thanks for sharing this, interesting watch. I have had Bill's book for many years, and it's undoubtedly influenced my own playing.

Interesting how he consciously engages the forearms at the very top speeds. It is exactly opposite to what Rick Dior taught me (who is another absolute monster), but Rick very definitely said that we were not working towards the Drum Corps style of playing. Nevertheless, valuable information here, thanks.

Bill has also been one of the biggest influences on how I play and teach doubles as well...and is a super nice, and smart guy.

I don't use as much forearm as him at top speeds (that is a 90's drum corps thing), but I get where he is coming from as far as getting power for endurance at that speed
 
But it’s nearly useless on surfaces with little rebound, like a floor Tom.

I totally get what you are saying, and now that I think about it, I have never had to play open double stroke rolls on a floor tom at 140bpm for a long time...or at all

that particular tool/technique is not in my drumming tool box for that reason, but it is in there so that when I need it, I can get it out...and it has helped me devlop the tool that I do use to play on surfaces with little rebound

I would never use Stevens 4 mallet grip to play on surfaces with no rebound either, but I learned it so that when I do need it, I have it
 
Off topic sorry.

Did Bill recover from that ailment that he found himself in several years ago? A year or two before that event occurred, I was absorbing his works; I even purchased his book. To which I must do with JC as well.
 
But it’s nearly useless on surfaces with little rebound, like a floor Tom.

Yeah agreed, to me the 2-part open/closed stroke is far more versatile and useful in basically all practical situations. The arm pumping technique is only really practical on a high-tension surface. I need my doubles to work on all drums and cymbals...
 
Yeah agreed, to me the 2-part open/closed stroke is far more versatile and useful in basically all practical situations. The arm pumping technique is only really practical on a high-tension surface. I need my doubles to work on all drums and cymbals...
One doesn’t exclude the other. If you look at the Bill Bachman videos, forearm pumping is for tempos too fast for wrist technique. Open/closed is for med-tempo doubles.
 
One doesn’t exclude the other. If you look at the Bill Bachman videos, forearm pumping is for tempos too fast for wrist technique. Open/closed is for med-tempo doubles.

True, but younger players are more likely to use the forearm method as a crutch, when they should be working on push-pull. Just my experience
 
Hey, Jonathan

Nice quality video, with clear articulation of your ideas.

Even though the video was primarily about "wrist rotation," you referred multiple times to the fulcrum while emphasizing the importance of it and demonstrating your approach to it.

Since you directly asked us for feedback, I think it's worth mentioning...

In terms of the fulcrum, there is another option as well...and that is to shift the stick so that it sits in the middle knuckle rather than the knuckle furthest from the hand.

It's really just a shift of half a centimeter or so, but it can make a world of difference for 2 reasons:

1) The index finger now becomes capable of propelling the stick instead of just creating the fulcrum.
2) The little segment of finger that is closest to the hand (technically called the "proximal phalange") now sits directly on top of the stick. This effortlessly stops the stick from getting out of position.

When we choose to do a little pinching fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand, we pit our finger strength against the upward force of the stick. The harder we strike the drum, the harder we need to squeeze in order to prevent the stick from slipping up out of the fulcrum. It's a losing battle for most drummers, unless they play very delicate music.

I only mention all of this because you specifically stated that your students often have a "weakness in the fulcrum." In my opinion, that "weakness" is almost guaranteed if the student is trying to use the little pinchy fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand while playing loudly. Again, the harder the student hits, the harder they will need to squeeze just to keep that kind of fulcrum intact. At some point, the muscle strength in the hand will simply give out...or the student will injure themselves trying to keep it together.

For better or worse, I know firsthand what I'm talking about here. I stressed and strained my hands to the point of injury years ago by trying to play loudly with that kind of fulcrum. Fortunately, Jim Chapin got a hold of me and knocked some sense into me before my drumming career was ruined. He actually had me release the index finger altogether.

Some years after that, I eventually reintegrated the index finger...but this time using the fulcrum in the middle knuckle. To give credit where it's due, I learned this approach primarily from 2 gentlemen already referenced in this thread: Bill Bachman and Gordy Knudtson. Both are wonderful drummers, wonderful teachers, and long-time friends of mine.

If you decide to try out what I'm suggesting, I think you'll find a dramatically increased sense of relaxation. It'll almost feel loose and out of control at first, but then you'll regain the control minus the need to squeeze harder and harder when striking the drum harder and harder. And as a bonus, your students will no longer have "weakness in the fulcrum" because the mass of the proximal phalange will do most of the work just by sitting on top of the stick.

I hope this input is helpful. Keep up the good work with the videos.


Hi Matt,

Thanks for your detailed response, and I appreciate the discussion.

It's interesting that you mention the position of the stick against the index finger, as that is something I have been re-evaluating specifically very recently. I think you are right in that keeping it rigidly too close to the finger tip can be limiting, and shifting it slightly towards the middle knuckle allows for a bit more freedom and harmony with the stick.

I'll keep playing and exploring the idea.

Many thanks for your comments and kind words.
 
There is a lot of info on even doubles for rolls, but pretty much the only doubles I use are one double at a time and usually with as dramatic a volume difference as I can put on them. Think "Cold Sweat" beat or swung eighths on the hi hat.
 
Hi Matt,

Thanks for your detailed response, and I appreciate the discussion.

It's interesting that you mention the position of the stick against the index finger, as that is something I have been re-evaluating specifically very recently. I think you are right in that keeping it rigidly too close to the finger tip can be limiting, and shifting it slightly towards the middle knuckle allows for a bit more freedom and harmony with the stick.

I'll keep playing and exploring the idea.

Many thanks for your comments and kind words.

I was thinking about this too, and I teach my kids to have the stick in between the first and second knuckle.

having done this for so long, I remember in the 90's, I taught the stick to be in the crease of the first knuckle, which did give a more stuff interp, but it is what I was seeing other people do

in the early 2000's, a lot of people were switching fully to middle finger fulcrum, almost taking the index finger off. I tried this for a minute, but it just doesn't work for fast, controlled playing, and for stiff like quads movement patterns. It was very hard to get 5-7 people clean with that technique.

in the 2010's, I went to a combination of what I liked from both, which is what we use now. It allows the students to have a comfortable control, but to still really live in the space of the rebound and to produce more sound quality with less effort, especially at faster speeds. I also feel like the grip i teach now is more adaptable across instruments
 
I'm not sure I understand what people mean use of "forearms". Since the muscles that produce wrist and finger motions are in the forearms I guess everyone does use their forearms, but I can't move my forearms at my elbows as fast as my forearms move my wrist and fingers. I guess as I get faster or louder using my wrist and fingers more of my forearms come into play but that seems natural from mechanics of motion (high force of agitation and momentum) than me muscling my forearms motion?
 
I'm not sure I understand what people mean use of "forearms". Since the muscles that produce wrist and finger motions are in the forearms I guess everyone does use their forearms, but I can't move my forearms at my elbows as fast as my forearms move my wrist and fingers. I guess as I get faster or louder using my wrist and fingers more of my forearms come into play but that seems natural from mechanics of motion (high force of agitation and momentum) than me muscling my forearms motion?

there is a "pumping" technique that was/is used in drum corps type playing where you sort of lock your wrists up, and pump from the elbow to get rolls out at faster speeds....to me, it is really uncomfortable and a misuse of the muscle groups. It came about in the 90's....

it is natural to get a little forearm going at faster speeds, but I always perceive it as residual motion, rather than primary motion
 
I'm not sure I understand what people mean use of "forearms". Since the muscles that produce wrist and finger motions are in the forearms I guess everyone does use their forearms, but I can't move my forearms at my elbows as fast as my forearms move my wrist and fingers. I guess as I get faster or louder using my wrist and fingers more of my forearms come into play but that seems natural from mechanics of motion (high force of agitation and momentum) than me muscling my forearms motion?
Watch the Bill Bachman video on the first page.
 
there is a "pumping" technique that was/is used in drum corps type playing where you sort of lock your wrists up, and pump from the elbow to get rolls out at faster speeds....to me, it is really uncomfortable and a misuse of the muscle groups. It came about in the 90's....

it is natural to get a little forearm going at faster speeds, but I always perceive it as residual motion, rather than primary motion
Thanks for the reply! I can see that being a corp thing, but man that takes some muscle and energy expenditure (but I may be doing it wrong). I'm pretty lazy and if I'm muscling to much I think I'm doing something wrong. LOL. Reminds me of pulpwooding and trying to muscle loading logs initially-you'll kill yourself-once they showed me how to use my body and momentum it was much easier. But the more I think about it I can see how a secondary agitation motion at elbow lever coordinated and in conjunction with wrist and fingers in distributing forces could really make things take off. Damn I had to take human gross anatomy in grad school but I never think about it in relation to drumming-now this has peaked my curiosity in how all this translates into biomechanical advantage (I'm sure it does)
 
there is a "pumping" technique that was/is used in drum corps type playing where you sort of lock your wrists up, and pump from the elbow to get rolls out at faster speeds....to me, it is really uncomfortable and a misuse of the muscle groups. It came about in the 90's....

it is natural to get a little forearm going at faster speeds, but I always perceive it as residual motion, rather than primary motion
It’s the primary motion at faster speeds. The wrists can’t keep up.
 
It’s the primary motion at faster speeds. The wrists can’t keep up.
Thanks I see what y'all mean-LOL for some reason I'd envisioned something different (lik exaggerated motions of Moeller). I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar video before of this (Awesome videos). And yes the motions absolutely make sense to me.
 
It’s the primary motion at faster speeds. The wrists can’t keep up.

but I can, or more specifically could, ( I have not needed to keep those kinds of chops at the top of the tool box for years...) roll that fast without pumping my arms...for me, the arm motion is residual, not primary. In fact I worked hard on making it so I didn't have to pump, since it seems so uncomfortable
 
So are you taking the full 8-10 seconds (or even the full minute) to move through the motion in ultra slow motion? I suppose that's where the improvement in control comes in, retaining conscious focus throughout the whole motion over a longer period of time.

Up to 10 minutes now. The power came first with slow practice, then control. Now the control and relaxation are getting better, and the speed improvements are really starting to appear.

I am finding that speed is all about tiny, imperceptible support from the torso. Just a tiny lean (not visible to most watchers) toward the surface you’re playing on. There’s no sensation of effort, especially not in the hands.

*shrug*
 
Up to 10 minutes now.
What are you doing during the 9 minutes and 59 seconds when you're NOT playing the stroke?

I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm 100% serious and sincere as I ask that question.

And my follow-up question would be...is there a way to achieve the same end more efficiently, so that less time is required?

Again, I'm genuinely curious.
 
What are you doing during the 9 minutes and 59 seconds when you're NOT playing the stroke?

I'm not being sarcastic here. I'm 100% serious and sincere as I ask that question.

And my follow-up question would be...is there a way to achieve the same end more efficiently, so that less time is required?

Again, I'm genuinely curious.

In those 9 minutes +? Moving very slowly, or just sitting still, if I’m playing low strokes.

Is there a faster way? *shrug* not that I know of, but I’ll keep an open mind on that
 
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