The use of the wrists in double strokes

[Jonathan Curtis]

Hi folks,

I was with a student yesterday, and we were working on his double strokes as we explored some Alan Dawson-style applications of accent studies.

I noticed that he wasn't moving his wrists at all during his double strokes, playing almost entirely from the elbow. This got me thinking about my own technique, and the methods I had worked on with Rick Dior. Rick was always very keen to get me to rotate my wrists much more than I was doing, and this really helped me to strengthen the rest of my technique and draw out bigger, more articulated strokes.

I decided to make a video on this expressing this idea and sharing my thoughts:

Perhaps this will be of interest to some of you. As always, I welcome constructive and productive discussion, as technique is rarely a black and white issue.

 

[Push pull stroke]

Best doubles I’ve ever seen are Bob Becker’s, and the best exercise I know of to improve them is just accent taps and tap accents.

I feel like, the slower you practice them, at all stick heights, the better they get. I don’t obsess about wrist or arm or finger anymore. Playing them slowly enough moves you beyond that, IMHO.

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

Best doubles I’ve ever seen are Bob Becker’s, and the best exercise I know of to improve them is just accent taps and tap accents.

I feel like, the slower you practice them, at all stick heights, the better they get. I don’t obsess about wrist or arm or finger anymore. Playing them slowly enough moves you beyond that, IMHO.

Do you know, you made the same comment about Bob Becker back in 2021 on this forum, and I had never heard of him. In exploring him after hearing about him from you, it indirectly led to my current snare drum specialisation, two Arts Council projects and three snare drum publications later.

You're right, his doubles are some of the greatest in the world, and he was gracious enough with me to share some gems of wisdom about his technique. However, like Yoda, he is now far beyond mortal concerns like wrists and the minutiae of technique, but it was still inspiring to listen to him discuss it.

For me, alas, I am still in the young Padawan stage, and for me at least, analysis and concept are part of my own journey, hence sharing it here.

You are right though, slow practise using accents and tap accents are a great way to develop them.

 

[Yamaha Rider]

Pedanti

Hi folks,

I was with a student yesterday, and we were working on his double strokes as we explored some Alan Dawson-style applications of accent studies.

I noticed that he wasn't moving his wrists at all during his double strokes, playing almost entirely from the elbow. This got me thinking about my own technique, and the methods I had worked on with Rick Dior. Rick was always very keen to get me to rotate my wrists much more than I was doing, and this really helped me to strengthen the rest of my technique and draw out bigger, more articulated strokes.

I decided to make a video on this expressing this idea and sharing my thoughts:

Perhaps this will be of interest to some of you. As always, I welcome constructive and productive discussion, as technique is rarely a black and white issue

Wrist "rotation" suggests to me the circular hand movement that wrists can perform.
Isn't 'pivot' better?

 

[Push pull stroke]

Do you know, you made the same comment about Bob Becker back in 2021 on this forum, and I had never heard of him. In exploring him after hearing about him from you, it indirectly led to my current snare drum specialisation, two Arts Council projects and three snare drum publications later.

You're right, his doubles are some of the greatest in the world, and he was gracious enough with me to share some gems of wisdom about his technique. However, like Yoda, he is now far beyond mortal concerns like wrists and the minutiae of technique, but it was still inspiring to listen to him discuss it.

For me, alas, I am still in the young Padawan stage, and for me at least, analysis and concept are part of my own journey, hence sharing it here.

You are right though, slow practise using accents and tap accents are a great way to develop them.

When I say “slow”, I mean like 8-10 seconds between notes. Or more. That’s not the only speed to practice at, but it’s the quickest way to really fast speeds, and to just moving beyond the minutiae of technique in general. Currently I’m practicing singles at one note per minute, and the power and control that has developed is really nice to have. Don’t know if I’ll ever get to Bob’s level, but I think super-slow practice is a legit method to get there

 

[Yamaha Rider]

When I say “slow”, I mean like 8-10 seconds between notes. Or more. That’s not the only speed to practice at, but it’s the quickest way to really fast speeds, and to just moving beyond the minutiae of technique in general. Currently I’m practicing singles at one note per minute, and the power and control that has developed is really nice to have. Don’t know if I’ll ever get to Bob’s level, but I think super-slow practice is a legit method to get there

One note per MINUTE?

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

When I say “slow”, I mean like 8-10 seconds between notes. Or more. That’s not the only speed to practice at, but it’s the quickest way to really fast speeds, and to just moving beyond the minutiae of technique in general. Currently I’m practicing singles at one note per minute, and the power and control that has developed is really nice to have. Don’t know if I’ll ever get to Bob’s level, but I think super-slow practice is a legit method to get there

So are you taking the full 8-10 seconds (or even the full minute) to move through the motion in ultra slow motion? I suppose that's where the improvement in control comes in, retaining conscious focus throughout the whole motion over a longer period of time.

 

[Push pull stroke]

So are you taking the full 8-10 seconds (or even the full minute) to move through the motion in ultra slow motion? I suppose that's where the improvement in control comes in, retaining conscious focus throughout the whole motion over a longer period of time.

Yep. It’s torture at first….then It becomes restful and relaxing. It’s essentially meditation at one note per minute and beyond, with the side benefit of tremendous improvement in technique

 

[GetAgrippa]

I don't use my arms or forearms much at all except to move around kit-it's mostly wrist and fingers. I think because I"m lazy and it's ergonomic for me LOL. But for slower rudiments/songs I tend to wrist it out more and as I speed up my fingers kick in and take over.
I use to never practice rudiments but just doing them really makes your weaknesses obvious. My grip use to be a death grip, my weaker left snare hand was very closed wrist as you mentioned with your students. I noted it was producing uneven stick heights when I started rudiments-that closed wrist angle limits you I think. As I kept practicing and my speed increased I got more finger action but with such lower stick heights they weren't generating much force-so it got weaker though speedy.
So I think now I've adopted a moderate height all the time, but still I like to wrist out certain songs like classic rock songs , and then latin or jazz my wrist/fingers come into play. I keep wondering why I tend to do it-so like with classic rock I think I get a more solid, pronounced "whack" with my wrist and lay into head more-with Latin and Jazz I'm dancing on top of cymbals and drums with my fingers dribbling the stick (so not as much energy lays into head-it goes into stick recoil for your fingers to catch)??

 

[Matched Gripper]

Hi folks,

I was with a student yesterday, and we were working on his double strokes as we explored some Alan Dawson-style applications of accent studies.

I noticed that he wasn't moving his wrists at all during his double strokes, playing almost entirely from the elbow. This got me thinking about my own technique, and the methods I had worked on with Rick Dior. Rick was always very keen to get me to rotate my wrists much more than I was doing, and this really helped me to strengthen the rest of my technique and draw out bigger, more articulated strokes.

I decided to make a video on this expressing this idea and sharing my thoughts:

Perhaps this will be of interest to some of you. As always, I welcome constructive and productive discussion, as technique is rarely a black and white issue.

Bill Bachman has the best double (and triple) strokes I’ve ever seen. Monstrous! He advocates 3 different techniques for 3 different tempo ranges: free stroke for slower tempos, open/closed or what he calls ally-oop for middle range tempos, and forearm pumping with no wrist and minimal finger movement for fast doubles. Here are couple of videos where he demos his doubles and triples:

Doubles starting at about 6:35:

Triples starting at beginning:

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

Bill Bachman has the best double (and triple) strokes I’ve ever seen. Monstrous! He advocates 3 different techniques for 3 different tempo ranges: free stroke for slower tempos, open/closed or what he calls ally-oop for middle range tempos, and forearm pumping with no wrist and minimal finger movement for fast doubles. Here are couple of videos where he demos his doubles and triples:

Doubles starting at 6:56:

Triples starting at beginning:

Yep, you're right. Absoluter monster. Thanks for sharing this, interesting watch. I have had Bill's book for many years, and it's undoubtedly influenced my own playing.

Interesting how he consciously engages the forearms at the very top speeds. It is exactly opposite to what Rick Dior taught me (who is another absolute monster), but Rick very definitely said that we were not working towards the Drum Corps style of playing. Nevertheless, valuable information here, thanks.

 

[Matched Gripper]

Yep, you're right. Absoluter monster. Thanks for sharing this, interesting watch. I have had Bill's book for many years, and it's undoubtedly influenced my own playing.

Interesting how he consciously engages the forearms at the very top speeds. It is exactly opposite to what Rick Dior taught me (who is another absolute monster), but Rick very definitely said that we were not working towards the Drum Corps style of playing. Nevertheless, valuable information here, thanks.

IMO, the forearm pumping technique is essential for fast rolls whatever the application. Virtually every drumset player uses it even if unintentionally.

 

[Square]

Great video, thnx for taking the time to explore this topic.

I continuously evaluate, re-evaluate, and overthink my doubles. I'm never happy with them, and your video gives me another way to pick them apart.

 

[Matched Gripper]

Hi folks,

I was with a student yesterday, and we were working on his double strokes as we explored some Alan Dawson-style applications of accent studies.

I noticed that he wasn't moving his wrists at all during his double strokes, playing almost entirely from the elbow. This got me thinking about my own technique, and the methods I had worked on with Rick Dior. Rick was always very keen to get me to rotate my wrists much more than I was doing, and this really helped me to strengthen the rest of my technique and draw out bigger, more articulated strokes.

I decided to make a video on this expressing this idea and sharing my thoughts:

Perhaps this will be of interest to some of you. As always, I welcome constructive and productive discussion, as technique is rarely a black and white issue.

FYI! Watched your vid. What you are demonstrating is the same technique that Bachman advocates for middle tempo range doubles. Also similar to Gordy Knudtson’s open/closed technique that he uses on virtually all stickings. One notable difference is that Gordy’s hand moves equally above and below the line of his forearm. Very impressive what he can do with this. Check it out here:

 

[Jonathan Curtis]

Great video, thnx for taking the time to explore this topic.

I continuously evaluate, re-evaluate, and overthink my doubles. I'm never happy with them, and your video gives me another way to pick them apart.

Ha! You’re welcome. And just like me!

 

[Push pull stroke]

IMO, the forearm pumping technique is essential for fast rolls whatever the application. Virtually every drumset player uses it even if unintentionally.

But it’s nearly useless on surfaces with little rebound, like a floor Tom.

 

[Matched Gripper]

But it’s nearly useless on surfaces with little rebound, like a floor Tom.

Depends on how you tune your floor tom. But, not sure why or how often you need to play doubles that fast on the floor tom.

 

[Chopstix44]

I use mainly wrist for the first stroke and produce the second one through my fingers in slower tempos. In „faster“ (im not fast tho) tempos I use the fingers to play.

 

[Matched Gripper]

In terms of the fulcrum, there is another option as well...and that is to shift the stick so that it sits in the middle knuckle rather than the knuckle furthest from the hand.

It's really just a shift of half a centimeter or so, but it can make a world of difference for 2 reasons:

1) The index finger now becomes capable of propelling the stick instead of just creating the fulcrum.
2) The little segment of finger that is closest to the hand (technically called the "proximal phalange") now sits directly on top of the stick. This effortlessly stops the stick from getting out of position.

When we choose to do a little pinching fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand, we pit our finger strength against the upward force of the stick. The harder we strike the drum, the more we need to squeeze in order to prevent the stick from slipping up out of the fulcrum. It's a losing battle for most drummers, unless they play very delicate music.

I only mention all of this because you mentioned that your students often have a "weakness in the fulcrum." In my opinion, that "weakness" is almost guaranteed if the student is trying to use the little pinchy fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand while playing loudly. Again, the harder the student hits, the harder they will need to squeeze just to keep that kind of fulcrum intact. At some point, the muscle strength in the hand will simply give out...or the student will injure themselves trying to keep it together.

For better or worse, I know firsthand what I'm talking about here. I stressed and strained my hands to the point of injury years ago by trying to play loudly with that kind of fulcrum. Fortunately, Jim Chapin got a hold of me and knocked some sense into me before my drumming career was ruined. He had me release the index finger altogether.

Some years after that, I eventually reintegrated the index finger...but this time using the fulcrum in the middle knuckle. To give credit where it's due, I learned this approach primarily from 2 gentlemen already referenced in this thread: Bill Bachman and Gordy Knudtson. Both are wonderful drummers, wonderful teachers, and long-time friends of mine.

If you decide to try out what I'm suggesting, I think you'll find a dramatically increased sense of relaxation. It'll almost feel loose and out of control at first, but then you'll regain the control minus the need to squeeze harder and harder when striking the drum harder and harder. And as a bonus, your students will no longer have "weakness in the fulcrum" because the mass of the proximal phalange will do most of the work just by sitting on top of the stick.

Agree completely about the middle knuckle fulcrum. The hand can remain loose and relaxed at any speed and/or dynamics. I also find finger technique much easier and more effective with the stick a little higher in the hand.

PS: And, don’t get me started about maintaining a space between the thumb and forefinger.

 

[MattRitter]

Hey, Jonathan

Nice quality video, with clear articulation of your ideas.

Even though the video was primarily about "wrist rotation," you referred multiple times to the fulcrum while emphasizing the importance of it and demonstrating your approach to it.

Since you directly asked us for feedback, I think it's worth mentioning...

In terms of the fulcrum, there is another option as well...and that is to shift the stick so that it sits in the middle knuckle rather than the knuckle furthest from the hand.

It's really just a shift of half a centimeter or so, but it can make a world of difference for 2 reasons:

1) The index finger now becomes capable of propelling the stick instead of just creating the fulcrum.
2) The little segment of finger that is closest to the hand (technically called the "proximal phalange") now sits directly on top of the stick. This effortlessly stops the stick from getting out of position.

When we choose to do a little pinching fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand, we pit our finger strength against the upward force of the stick. The harder we strike the drum, the harder we need to squeeze in order to prevent the stick from slipping up out of the fulcrum. It's a losing battle for most drummers, unless they play very delicate music.

I only mention all of this because you specifically stated that your students often have a "weakness in the fulcrum." In my opinion, that "weakness" is almost guaranteed if the student is trying to use the little pinchy fulcrum in the knuckle furthest from the hand while playing loudly. Again, the harder the student hits, the harder they will need to squeeze just to keep that kind of fulcrum intact. At some point, the muscle strength in the hand will simply give out...or the student will injure themselves trying to keep it together.

For better or worse, I know firsthand what I'm talking about here. I stressed and strained my hands to the point of injury years ago by trying to play loudly with that kind of fulcrum. Fortunately, Jim Chapin got a hold of me and knocked some sense into me before my drumming career was ruined. He actually had me release the index finger altogether.

Some years after that, I eventually reintegrated the index finger...but this time using the fulcrum in the middle knuckle. To give credit where it's due, I learned this approach primarily from 2 gentlemen already referenced in this thread: Bill Bachman and Gordy Knudtson. Both are wonderful drummers, wonderful teachers, and long-time friends of mine.

If you decide to try out what I'm suggesting, I think you'll find a dramatically increased sense of relaxation. It'll almost feel loose and out of control at first, but then you'll regain the control minus the need to squeeze harder and harder when striking the drum harder and harder. And as a bonus, your students will no longer have "weakness in the fulcrum" because the mass of the proximal phalange will do most of the work just by sitting on top of the stick.

I hope this input is helpful. Keep up the good work with the videos.