The Truth Behind Tama's Move to China
- Thread starter Artstar
- Start date
droveto
Senior Member
BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Porsche and tons of industral and medical products you use daily that you haven't accounted for. (Billions of dollars of exports)
Swiss exports aren't great due to the depreciation of global currencies while the franc is strong.
A-customs
Silver Member
Damm, i thought all good chocolate came from Hersey Pennsylvania
Les Ismore
Platinum Member
Why would you need to invest millions of dollars building a new plant in a communist country when you already have a fully functioning plant in your homeland. Why would they have not spent the money upgrading the existing plant in Japan if it was outdated. -gwaco
Senior Member
The simple answer: To cut costs by taking advantage of an abundant and cheap (and hopefully proud) labor force... these people have a low standard of living, exploiting it will keep TAMA profitable/competitive.
It was also stated that should you want a kit still made in Japan you may still do so but the cost will be greater , Why ? again you already have everything in place to do this!---gwaco
Senior Member
The more complex answer: The Japanese are a proud people, they take care of their own. To even insinuate fellow countryman take a pay cut to produce essentially the same quality product (they (the proud, lower paid Guangzhou workers) adhere to the most stringent quality control standards, the very same ones we use in Japan.-Terry Bissette) would not be morally acceptable.
Expecting consumers to make-up the difference 'is' morally acceptable, its TAMA'S way of showing you they're committed to making their high quality drums even more accessible to the drummers of the world by lowering the price points. Some of you still want the Japanese drums, made in Japan? They are totally available! For a 'save face' up-charge.
We do not make “cookie cutter, stamp them out, stack them on a shelf” drums (in the Japan plant). Each one is hand made with TLC. -Terry Bissette
Right on! “cookie cutter, stamp them out, stack them on a shelf” that's reserved for the Guangzhou plant, enjoy the $avings(?).
Senior Member
The simple answer: To cut costs by taking advantage of an abundant and cheap (and hopefully proud) labor force... these people have a low standard of living, exploiting it will keep TAMA profitable/competitive.
It was also stated that should you want a kit still made in Japan you may still do so but the cost will be greater , Why ? again you already have everything in place to do this!---gwaco
Senior Member
The more complex answer: The Japanese are a proud people, they take care of their own. To even insinuate fellow countryman take a pay cut to produce essentially the same quality product (they (the proud, lower paid Guangzhou workers) adhere to the most stringent quality control standards, the very same ones we use in Japan.-Terry Bissette) would not be morally acceptable.
Expecting consumers to make-up the difference 'is' morally acceptable, its TAMA'S way of showing you they're committed to making their high quality drums even more accessible to the drummers of the world by lowering the price points. Some of you still want the Japanese drums, made in Japan? They are totally available! For a 'save face' up-charge.
We do not make “cookie cutter, stamp them out, stack them on a shelf” drums (in the Japan plant). Each one is hand made with TLC. -Terry Bissette
Right on! “cookie cutter, stamp them out, stack them on a shelf” that's reserved for the Guangzhou plant, enjoy the $avings(?).
I bet you have no clue as to the number of items you use every day or own in your home that are made under these same conditions. You may as well close down Walmart.
MikeM
Platinum Member
What an excellent idea!
zambizzi
Platinum Member
Their standard of living is rising everyday! How do you think this happens!? How do you think that the quality of living you enjoy today came about? No one is "exploiting" them, companies are moving there and providing *far better* opportunities than existed before. Ten years ago, it was uncommon for almost any "commoner" to own a car, they were luxuries of the communist party elite. Today, the roads are packed with cars. Shops and malls are popping up everywhere, folks are buying homes...property is becoming a reality for people that were once communist feudal slaves!
Quit with the hyperbole, already. What your arguments lack in substance, you're filling in with BS.
The profit motive is a POSITIVE market trait, for humanity.
Mikecore
Silver Member
In the grand scheme of things, it's China's turn, and once they get things together, they will clean up (cleaner and smarter use of resources is a much more capitalistic idea than one might suspect; you don't want to destruct your way out of business). Then it will be India, and so on. It was England's turn in the 19th century, America's in the 20th...somebody gets to make all the smoke for the rest of us.
Fortunately, the Earth is a big girl and can take care of herself. We have been burning/cutting/digging/dumping for centuries as a way of life. In reality, not much has changed as far as the planet. We just gripe about it more because we have the time to sit around and get paranoid about it. Guys who have to live off the land day by day don't have that time.
China has improved as they adopt more Capitalist ideas. Sooner or later they will have to realize why that rubs up against Communism, or they will be headed downhill again. You can't mix food and poison and call it nutrition. I seem to recall seeing this in the USSR back in the late 80s, and what it lead to. It could happen in China as well.
Keeping them impoverished will not do much for them, or the rest of us when it creates the kind of unrest that leads to anger that leads to attack, that much I'm sure of. Make them a business powerhouse, I say. Happy people don't generally start trouble.
In the meantime, we have a few years to get some really good drums at great prices before they figure it out and raise their prices.
Les Ismore
Platinum Member
How do you think that the quality of living you enjoy today came about?
America was founded with a Bill of Rights and a Constitution.
China is a communist country, research its history, it does not want to become USA 2.0
China becoming a Constitutional Republic, a free nation b/c America buys their goods? Fantasy.
Industry is not the provider of freedom(s).
I will not support TAMA, too many better choices.
America was founded with a Bill of Rights and a Constitution.
China is a communist country, research its history, it does not want to become USA 2.0
China becoming a Constitutional Republic, a free nation b/c America buys their goods? Fantasy.
Industry is not the provider of freedom(s).
I will not support TAMA, too many better choices.
harryconway
Platinum Member
People need to think (or know a little history). China only "became" a Communist country, in 1949. 60+ years ago. One generation.
Before and during WWII, they were our ally. The famous Flying Tigers flew out of China (were actually "part" of the Chinese Air Force) in 1941-1942. The 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) was basically a group of mercenaries, by definition.
1937, Japan invaded China, and killed some 30+ million Chinese. And don't think that fact is left forgotten/not remembered ... in China.
And now, they're the fastest growing economy.
Anyone who hasn't seen this move, in the last 10 years, is just in "plain old denial". The corporate "outsourcing". Those jobs "we lost" .... they got. And I don't think they're ever coming back.
People who "had" lifestyle la vida loca .... and lost it. Might just have to get used to a downscaled lifestyle now.
It ain't how much money you make, that makes you rich ..... it's how you live .....
zambizzi
Platinum Member
And these pieces of paper magically made American wealth and prosperity materialize, out of thin air?
So, economic freedom doesn't produce wealth...magical pieces of paper do? I'm looking for science here, too...not just vague, lofty sentiment. Last time I checked, producing things and selling them, is what makes people wealthy.
Then don't. Tama actually operates a business and knows what they're doing, and they continue to make products of higher quality and lower prices, every year. This leaves more dollars in the pockets of their customers, making them more wealthy. Thanks to those efforts, the products you DO prefer will continue to improve.
droveto
Senior Member
Those following China know there have been more and more factory revolts/walk outs and increasing pay over the past several years. Citizens have been given access to purchase precious metals and build their own savings. Those who don't see it haven't done enough research. There will be no USA 2.0, there's no way to exploit humans the way slavery did, but the Chinese came close and they are realizing they deserve better lives and conditions. It's just a matter of time.
conchrandy
Senior Member
Still no answer as to what happened to the (Japan) SC maples. I keep getting "you can still order them" but did anyone tell that to the friendly GC man? Why Bubinga and not Maple in the catalogue?
Andrewski
Member
I somehow lost the point of your post in your rather offensive story that you made up in your second to last paragraph..
The point was...we ACCEPT all these lil changes in our world and the stereotypes that go with them all in the name of saving a buck. We all kinda grumble about who owns the gas stations, who builds our cars, all the jobs are goin over seas.....while we sit back and enjoy the momentary high of saving a few bucks at walmart on stuff we didn't really need in the first place.
This whole thread has been offensive, we got ourselves into this by demanding cheaper goods and we have traded our birthright for a bowl of stew. (Some might have to look that up...) I find it humorous that someone would curse Tama for the same thing the makers of ALL the other products we consume have been doing. While typing on a keyboard made in China no less...
The post was intended to make you say: WTF did he just say....? Cheap goods are more important to America than Bob's Music Store, we'd rather pay him an entitlement check from some other guy's taxes than spend the extra on a purchase. Don't believe it? Look around your town.
This whole thread has been offensive, we got ourselves into this by demanding cheaper goods and we have traded our birthright for a bowl of stew. (Some might have to look that up...) I find it humorous that someone would curse Tama for the same thing the makers of ALL the other products we consume have been doing. While typing on a keyboard made in China no less...
The post was intended to make you say: WTF did he just say....? Cheap goods are more important to America than Bob's Music Store, we'd rather pay him an entitlement check from some other guy's taxes than spend the extra on a purchase. Don't believe it? Look around your town.
Artstar
Platinum Member
GC man ?? That's the last person/people you would want to ask about anything slightly touching the surface of complicated...
Here you go: http://www.dalesdrumshop.com/
A
audiotech
Guest
I stayed out of this until now because I've been through this discussion three times before with Tama, my Five Star shop and the people who work there. There are probably not many out there that have the opportunities to directly compare and really check these kits out in person. About 6 or 8 months ago I was very interested in a Tama Starclassic Maple kit, nothing elaborate, just a four piece shell pack. I went to my favorite shop where they had two maple kits in colors that I liked. One was a kit made in Japan with the shell decals and the other was made in China with the surface mounted badges. I tried both kits and to me and the people who were with me all thought that the Japan made drums sounded cleaner and better than China's edition. The lacquer finish on the Japan made drums looked deeper and overall smoother. I decided to think about the purchase for a week or two. When I went back to the shop, the Japan Starclassic Maple kit was gone. I always gamble like that thinking that if they're sold, there will always be more. I don't know if their supplier (Hoshino) ran dry of Japan kits or what, but the shop couldn't get their hands on any.
Since I've owned their Japan made Starclassic Bubinga drums since May of 2008, I know the quality of the shells and finishes that come out of their Japan factories and they're second to none. I did not have the same enthusiasm in their China made counterparts and even less for some of the people working at Hoshino in Bensalem, PA. I'm not going to elaborate on what went on at Hoshino because it's water under the bridge. Because of this I took some one's reply to heart to a thread I made and bought something else. They cost me a bit more, but if I have any issues with them, the company's vice president is just a call away. Add on drums took about six weeks to arrive, where Tama's now quoting three to four months.
Remember, like most companies re-organizing and trying to keep afloat, Tama will tell you what they think you want to hear to be able to sell their products.
Dennis
Since I've owned their Japan made Starclassic Bubinga drums since May of 2008, I know the quality of the shells and finishes that come out of their Japan factories and they're second to none. I did not have the same enthusiasm in their China made counterparts and even less for some of the people working at Hoshino in Bensalem, PA. I'm not going to elaborate on what went on at Hoshino because it's water under the bridge. Because of this I took some one's reply to heart to a thread I made and bought something else. They cost me a bit more, but if I have any issues with them, the company's vice president is just a call away. Add on drums took about six weeks to arrive, where Tama's now quoting three to four months.
Remember, like most companies re-organizing and trying to keep afloat, Tama will tell you what they think you want to hear to be able to sell their products.
Dennis
W
wy yung
Guest
I just want to state for the record that I am not anti Chinese. Much of my life has been spent studying Chinese history and Chinese martial arts. I love the Chinese people. One of the World's truly great people. China has an ancient history. Hell the Swiss learned how to make watches from the Chinese. Farming tools that took the West thousands of years to discover were used in China milenia before.
The Chinese are great. Make no mistake.
However, like other master/serf based social societies they rebelled through the misguided and human nature denial philosophy known as Communism. Socialism can be seen as an all embracing system provided people are honest and giving. But people are not open and giving. And it is the denial of that simple fact that makes Karl Marx an abject failue as a philosopher. And why the pety and small minded Communists eroded and then usurped the Socialist idea.
What was left was an anti intellectual, anti individual hive mind set. And any individual was slaughtered outright. Any artist not working for the state should be repelled by this idea. And as we have seen, Communism is a failure. It was a system based in fantasy and fell as such. The "people" were never represented and every Communist state became a dictatorship. Every single one!
Now we have a situation that leaves me perplexed. I have also learned Japanese history and studied their martial arts. The Japanese are also a great people who value Face. Respect. Self respect. And they demand it from others. It is a reason why they entered WWII. So how is it Japanese corporations can stomach the contempt shown to Japan by the Communist Chinese government that is taking place at this time???
Just for this $$$$$?????
I do not understand.
I am very careful not to buy Chinese made goods.
This is of course my own feeling and I do not demand it of others. Unlike the Communists who demand their people toe the line.
Kind of like Islamic states.
The poor individual really is at sea in the 21st century. Strange, isn't it?
The Chinese are great. Make no mistake.
However, like other master/serf based social societies they rebelled through the misguided and human nature denial philosophy known as Communism. Socialism can be seen as an all embracing system provided people are honest and giving. But people are not open and giving. And it is the denial of that simple fact that makes Karl Marx an abject failue as a philosopher. And why the pety and small minded Communists eroded and then usurped the Socialist idea.
What was left was an anti intellectual, anti individual hive mind set. And any individual was slaughtered outright. Any artist not working for the state should be repelled by this idea. And as we have seen, Communism is a failure. It was a system based in fantasy and fell as such. The "people" were never represented and every Communist state became a dictatorship. Every single one!
Now we have a situation that leaves me perplexed. I have also learned Japanese history and studied their martial arts. The Japanese are also a great people who value Face. Respect. Self respect. And they demand it from others. It is a reason why they entered WWII. So how is it Japanese corporations can stomach the contempt shown to Japan by the Communist Chinese government that is taking place at this time???
Just for this $$$$$?????
I do not understand.
I am very careful not to buy Chinese made goods.
This is of course my own feeling and I do not demand it of others. Unlike the Communists who demand their people toe the line.
Kind of like Islamic states.
The poor individual really is at sea in the 21st century. Strange, isn't it?
Last edited:
Les Ismore
Platinum Member
Since I've owned their (TAMA'S) Japan made Starclassic Bubinga drums since May of 2008, I know the quality of the shells and finishes that come out of their Japan factories and they're second to none. I did not have the same enthusiasm in their China made counterparts...
Maybe their QC isn't all that good.
"You may or may not be surprised to know we operated the factory at our own expense (not at the expense of consumers?) for well over a year making blanks (test shells), before we ever shipped one drum into the market. We wanted to make sure our Chinese production quality level was an exact match to the Japanese factory standards. The same exact standards we built our reputation on."-Terry Bissette
There you go, an exact match in quality, but an up charge for Japan made product.
Give them a chance, they're probably still trying to instill 'pride' in their Guangzhou workers. Unless TAMA filters the air in the factory, the pollution 'is' going to effect the finish.
And these pieces of paper magically made American wealth and prosperity materialize, out of thin air?
Sounds like someone needs an education.
You measure wealth as digits on a computer, or worthless bank notes, while others measure wealth by how free they are. The Chinese government can waltz into TAMA's or any other factory in China and take it over, imprison, or eliminate all the staff/workers and the company would have no-zero legal recourse. And yes, slavery is rampant in China.
You gotta love it, someone posts a email from a TAMA minion defending their move to China and the TAMA faithful here defend it as the word of god. Its nothing but business as usual, just another cynical money grab painted over as 'for the good of the consumer'.
Maybe their QC isn't all that good.
"You may or may not be surprised to know we operated the factory at our own expense (not at the expense of consumers?) for well over a year making blanks (test shells), before we ever shipped one drum into the market. We wanted to make sure our Chinese production quality level was an exact match to the Japanese factory standards. The same exact standards we built our reputation on."-Terry Bissette
There you go, an exact match in quality, but an up charge for Japan made product.
Give them a chance, they're probably still trying to instill 'pride' in their Guangzhou workers. Unless TAMA filters the air in the factory, the pollution 'is' going to effect the finish.
And these pieces of paper magically made American wealth and prosperity materialize, out of thin air?
Sounds like someone needs an education.
You measure wealth as digits on a computer, or worthless bank notes, while others measure wealth by how free they are. The Chinese government can waltz into TAMA's or any other factory in China and take it over, imprison, or eliminate all the staff/workers and the company would have no-zero legal recourse. And yes, slavery is rampant in China.
You gotta love it, someone posts a email from a TAMA minion defending their move to China and the TAMA faithful here defend it as the word of god. Its nothing but business as usual, just another cynical money grab painted over as 'for the good of the consumer'.
Looks fairly clean.....
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=26877&id=124519624255765
If anyone can translate the banner on photo 36???
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=26877&id=124519624255765
If anyone can translate the banner on photo 36???