The Speed Obsession

T

The SunDog

Guest
Maybe I'm picking nits here but we're getting taller largely due to better nutrition, not some evolutionary advantage to being tall.

Also, getting to have children is not necessarily about "out doing the competition" in terms of speed and/or power. Certainly not for modern humans. If that was the case, I'd venture that most of us would not have any kids!
We are getting taller because taller people are breeding more successfully, either more often or more offspring are surviving, or more tall people survive to breeding age. People don't get genetically taller from their diet or anything else they do, other than surgery. They are either taller or not, and then pass these traits on. So taller people have been getting lucky more and therefore have more offspring and the next generation is made up of more tall people, who again breed more successfully, etc, etc. Evolution doesn't happen during ones lifetime, that's not how it works.
 
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MikeM

Platinum Member
Speed is always relative to something. If it's relative to a clock or other drummers, then it's either an exercise or a competition, neither of which is even mildly interesting to me. But if it's a short burst of 16th note triplets around the kit (relative to the pulse) used for effect (think Bonham), it can be breathtaking.

For slow, my money's on Jeff Porcaro. Wowza!
 

JustJames

Platinum Member
We are getting taller because taller people are breeding more successfully, either more often or more offspring are surviving, or more tall people survive to breeding age. People don't get genetically taller from their diet or anything else they do, other than surgery. They are either taller or not, and then pass these traits on. So taller people have been getting lucky more and therefore have more offspring and the next generation is made up of more tall people, who again breed more successfully, etc, etc. Evolution doesn't happen during ones lifetime, that's not how it works.
It is true that people do not get any genetical predisposition to grow taller from their diet, but better diet allows genes which code for height to express better.

We are a mix of nature - genes for height - and nurture - diet which allows us to grow taller.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that taller people have more children than shorter people?
 
T

The SunDog

Guest
It is true that people do not get any genetical predisposition to grow taller from their diet, but better diet allows genes which code for height to express better.

We are a mix of nature - genes for height - and nurture - diet which allows us to grow taller.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that taller people have more children than shorter people?
I said that they are able to breed more successfully. Whether more often or more children or whether taller people live to breeding age more often I don't know, but it's one of those things. My guess is that on a subconscious level we find taller people more attractive. Also tall and taller are relative terms. I'm not talking about basketball players and little people. It's happening on a much more subtle scale, imperceptible from one generation to the next, but evident over a few thousand years. We are getting taller as a species and this is not something that can be caused by the food we eat. When breeding dogs, you cannot get pups that will grow taller, by simply feeding the parents better. A lifetime of good meals will not change your genetic code. Starving a man will not make him have sickly or short children. Long term change in a species comes from natural selection and as evidence I will refer you to " The Origin of Species". Examples of controlled selection in dog breeding should serve as further evidence. If you want taller dogs you just don't let the shorter ones breed, only the tallest. Over the course of a couple of generations, entire litters are taller, and it can't be done with diet. So, on some subconscious level, we are breeding ourselves taller.
 
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soulfly28

Senior Member
As to my favorite "slow" drummer, Here it is. I am unsure of his name. He, throughout the entire album, plays a wide range. Mostly what people consider slow. He seems to know what the music really calls for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbNhdhKJpf0

As for the speed obsession, I think it is just a bragging right thing. I would personally much rather listen to an excellent "slow" drummer than somebody who is just trying to catch the air around their wrists on fire.
 

shemp

Silver Member
To me speed is one tool in the toolbox....it can be very effective and artistic when juxtaposed among non speed items.....just a tool and neat when used sparingly in the right context. Not good and not bad.

It's impressive because it is not all that easy to attain and requires work and maybe some talent.

What's very impressive is to have many tools at your disposal and know how and when to,use them and how to use them together to create tension, etc....that qualifies as great musicianship as far as I am concerned....

I think this is why Bonham ranks so high....he had a treasure box full of grooves and feels but also used speed very effectively....
 

drummer-russ

Gold Member
I said that they are able to breed more successfully. Whether more often or more children or whether taller people live to breeding age more often I don't know, but it's one of those things. My guess is that on a subconscious level we find taller people more attractive. Also tall and taller are relative terms. I'm not talking about basketball players and little people. It's happening on a much more subtle scale, imperceptible from one generation to the next, but evident over a few thousand years. We are getting taller as a species and this is not something that can be caused by the food we eat. When breeding dogs, you cannot get pups that will grow taller, by simply feeding the parents better. A lifetime of good meals will not change your genetic code. Starving a man will not make him have sickly or short children. Long term change in a species comes from natural selection and as evidence I will refer you to " The Origin of Species". Examples of controlled selection in dog breeding should serve as further evidence. If you want taller dogs you just don't let the shorter ones breed, only the tallest. Over the course of a couple of generations, entire litters are taller, and it can't be done with diet. So, on some subconscious level, we are breeding ourselves taller.
I don't think this is factual. A quick search tells us that diet is indeed a significant or primary factor, as is health care improvements.

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1820836,00.html
http://www.care2.com/causes/getting-bigger-all-the-time-why-humans-are-taller-and-healthier-than-ever.html
 
T

The SunDog

Guest
I don't think this is factual. A quick search tells us that diet is indeed a significant or primary factor, as is health care improvements.

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1820836,00.html
http://www.care2.com/causes/getting-bigger-all-the-time-why-humans-are-taller-and-healthier-than-ever.html
Okay. I'll leave it with this, then you can say "unh uh" one more time, and we can stop this. Do you believe that jockeys or flyweight boxers can get taller by eating a better diet? Do you think those people don't already eat well. Don't forget about pro basketball players, sheesh, we could have have 8'0" tall players in no time (diet right?). Its to bad we didn't understand this when Robert Wadlow was alive. We could have simply starved him into shrinking (No genetics there). While we're at it, let's try an enhanced diet for people with dwarfism, you know, nip that problem in the bud. It's just a genetic trait right? That can be changed with diet right? Look, I don't have a link to an obscure study that shows some scientific evidence that there is a possible link between diet and the height of modern humans. I will however direct you to the many papers and books published by Charles Darwin.
 
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JustJames

Platinum Member
I said that they are able to breed more successfully. Whether more often or more children or whether taller people live to breeding age more often I don't know, but it's one of those things. .... We are getting taller as a species and this is not something that can be caused by the food we eat. When breeding dogs, you cannot get pups that will grow taller, by simply feeding the parents better. A lifetime of good meals will not change your genetic code. Starving a man will not make him have sickly or short children. Long term change in a species comes from natural selection and as evidence I will refer you to " The Origin of Species". Examples of controlled selection in dog breeding should serve as further evidence. If you want taller dogs you just don't let the shorter ones breed, only the tallest. Over the course of a couple of generations, entire litters are taller, and it can't be done with diet. So, on some subconscious level, we are breeding ourselves taller.
Genetic success means that the trait under discussion leads to more offspring from one generation to the next.

Getting taller can't be caused by eating better food, but it certainly can be caused by eating worse food!

I had heard of Mr Darwin's work, and have read others on the same subject besides.

Humans are only breeding ourselves taller if there is some reproductive advantage to being taller. Again, for that to work, that means that tall people must be having more children than short people. Do you have any evidence that this is actually happening (rather than a mechanism by which it might occur)? I would suggest that in the developed world, we have all but removed selective pressure through near-universal access to quality diet and health care.

On a related note, in the developed world obesity is much prevalent than at any time in history. While there may be a genetic component (many characteristics are a mix of nature and nurture), you'd be hard pressed to claim that we have been breeding ourselves for obesity.

We're also living longer than at any time in the past. A baby born in the US in 1900 had an average life expectancy of less than 50 years. Today it's around 80 years. Genetics again?

Genes code for attributes. Some attributes, such as eye colour and sex will always be expressed. But other attributes - such as height, body fat percentage, muscle mass, bone density etc - will also be influenced by environment.

Okay. I'll leave it with this, then you can say "unh uh" one more time, and this conversation will be over. First, we better not let those NBA players eat organic diets. Sheesh, we'll have 8'0" tall players in no time (diet right? No genetics there). While we're at it, let's try an enhanced diet for people with dwarfism, you know, nip that problem in the bud. It's just a genetic trait right? That can be changed with diet right? I don't know the name of the scientist that postulated your theory. The scientist that wrote the theory of natural selection was Darwin. Unless you believe that humans are above evolution, in which case we shouldn't be debating this at all.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? Of course you can't feed dwarfism away, but travel back in time and subject the baby that would otherwise grow to be a 7'0" tall basketball player to malnourishment. Do you honestly believe that he would still grow to be 7'0" tall?

And since when are organic diets sub-standard diets?

Humans are not above evolution from any moral, ethical or spiritual standpoint, but as I said before, near-universal access to quality nutrition and health care in the first world means that we have largely removed selective pressures from our reproductive potential.

Final (and genuine) question, are you trolling deliberately here?

(Apologies to DW'ers who don't care about this stuff for the thread drift.)
 
T

The SunDog

Guest
Look at the evolutionary chain. From monkeys to proto humans to man the line gets taller (diet I guess?) and we are as a whole still getting taller, but according to you that's not evolution anymore. And starving a person to near death for their entire lives might stunt their growth, but merE nutritional value of meals alone will not. You need to actually read " The Origin of Species". If you say you have then you should re-read it, because your description "only if there is some reproductive advantage" is dead wrong. Your understanding of evolution is limited. You continuing to argue points you want to be true without anything real to back it up, we'll you used the word obtuse. You don't realize that you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Darwinism. You are merely shooting the messenger.
 

sdedge

Senior Member
Well speed is like everybody nows just a tool in your toolbox ,you need it just take it.
But its not for everyone some players will never get a good speed because there not talent/physical build for speed.
After all its how you put you skills to the song and let it work in the song/music.
Its about taste ,you play music or you plays drums?if you play drums you can show your speed skills and thrills or groove,but if you play music and let it work ,thats a other ballgame.
Its still is a art form guys ,not a speed race off physical endurance.
 
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