The paradox of expensive drumsets

[BrokenStick]

...Expectation also plays a big part. You walk in with a £5k kit and people expect the best thing since sliced bread. Walk in with a well set up Saturn, Starclassic, Masters, Stage Custom etc and people are blown away with how good they sound.

Someone needs to rig up a blind listening test for all this stuff. I am pretty sure that most of us would be surprised at the results, and I believe many who claim golden ears when it comes to identifying this or that would fail a true blind test. Under close microphones there are differences, but you get ten or so feet in front of a kit--never mind having a band to listen through--and most of those differences disappear. Snare drums would be my only exception to this in terms of sound. What we do have is a multiple biases and cognitive dissonance. And we have a whole lot of marketing from the manufacturers and the after-market hype from sellers and BELIEVERS that this or that sounds this way or that. Vintage drums have a sound because of "aged wood." Really? There is absolutely no way to prove that thesis. Shell construction and composition have way way less to do with the sound than the heads, hoops, sticks and the technique and touch of the player.
There is, in fact, no way to prove most of the sweeping grandiose claims you regularly and frequently see and hear about drum sounds. You simply can not eliminate all the variables to manipulate ONLY ONE at a time. Two drums are always going to sound different because they are TWO drums and have DIFFERENT heads on them. Even if tuned exactly the same and using the same sticks, you still have those variables in addition to whatever minute differences there might be in strike zone accuracy and velocity. Those could maybe be eliminated with a robot that always hit the exact same spot with the exact same angle and velocity.

The Drum Candy Podcast has conducted some testing along these lines with snare drums. It is about time someone took this on.

What might be different among all manufacturers' drums (vintage and modern alike) is how they feel and respond to the player. That will, of course, affect how he feels and responds to the drum. Those differences in feel might be the bearing edges and likely the hoops especially for rim shots. And it is possible that the shell construction contributes something to that as well.

In the end, drums either sound good, or they do not. There is also the visual aesthetic as well, but I am not going to comment on that (see below). We all know that Gretsch, Rogers and Camco drums of the '60s were sprinkled with magical pixie dust, and that is why they are the Crown of Creation as far as drums are concerned.

Full disclosure:
I am over 60 now, and it is possible I just don't have the hearing any longer to detect what ALL commercially interested parties and many drummers claim about various drums. On the other hand, I am blind, so I am used to using my ears and as my primary window on the World around me. It doesn't mean my ears are better, however. My ears didn't miraculously get better when I lost my sight. It's a physiological and anatomical thing. What did change was how I listened and interpreted what I did hear.

 

[s1212z]

wonder what prev owner was thinking/had in mind/

Business in the front, party in the back

 

[jda]

yes 20/13/16 was a Name Band G outfit (and others) since early 60s
I was testing you guys. Some failed others passed withFlying colours

 

[2 hit wonder]

Someone needs to rig up a blind listening test for all this stuff. I am pretty sure that most of us would be surprised at the results, and I believe many who claim golden ears when it comes to identifying this or that would fail a true blind test. Under close microphones there are differences, but you get ten or so feet in front of a kit--never mind having a band to listen through--and most of those differences disappear. Snare drums would be my only exception to this in terms of sound. What we do have is a multiple biases and cognitive dissonance. And we have a whole lot of marketing from the manufacturers and the after-market hype from sellers and BELIEVERS that this or that sounds this way or that. Vintage drums have a sound because of "aged wood." Really? There is absolutely no way to prove that thesis. Shell construction and composition have way way less to do with the sound than the heads, hoops, sticks and the technique and touch of the player.
There is, in fact, no way to prove most of the sweeping grandiose claims you regularly and frequently see and hear about drum sounds. You simply can not eliminate all the variables to manipulate ONLY ONE at a time. Two drums are always going to sound different because they are TWO drums and have DIFFERENT heads on them. Even if tuned exactly the same and using the same sticks, you still have those variables in addition to whatever minute differences there might be in strike zone accuracy and velocity. Those could maybe be eliminated with a robot that always hit the exact same spot with the exact same angle and velocity.

The Drum Candy Podcast has conducted some testing along these lines with snare drums. It is about time someone took this on.

What might be different among all manufacturers' drums (vintage and modern alike) is how they feel and respond to the player. That will, of course, affect how he feels and responds to the drum. Those differences in feel might be the bearing edges and likely the hoops especially for rim shots. And it is possible that the shell construction contributes something to that as well.

In the end, drums either sound good, or they do not. There is also the visual aesthetic as well, but I am not going to comment on that (see below). We all know that Gretsch, Rogers and Camco drums of the '60s were sprinkled with magical pixie dust, and that is why they are the Crown of Creation as far as drums are concerned.

Full disclosure:
I am over 60 now, and it is possible I just don't have the hearing any longer to detect what ALL commercially interested parties and many drummers claim about various drums. On the other hand, I am blind, so I am used to using my ears and as my primary window on the World around me. It doesn't mean my ears are better, however. My ears didn't miraculously get better when I lost my sight. It's a physiological and anatomical thing. What did change was how I listened and interpreted what I did hear.

Are PRS US made guitars better than Squier? Because Jeff Beck could've dialed both in, right?
Somebody getting a good sound from cheaper kits is NOT the same as easily tuning drums to the sound you want. Especially lesser experienced people. There's much more to it than being able to coax a good sound from cheaper drums. What you have to go thru and how versatile is a big deal. How long the hardware lasts or how adjustable it is matters A LOT.

I don't let unknown groups on a for-profit platform like YouTube convince me of something contrary from my own experiences.

I don't have time to read all that above but I caught the drift in a few sentences. I use Pearl Export kits for jams when I host. They're good enough, but nobody really praises them.

To reiterate, it's about time spent getting a good sound. If I have to work at it, I'm out. And I don't have to work much to get it from what I use for my band work. And they stay tuned for a tremendous number of gigs. It's surprising when something sounds off.

An easy sound is just part of it. Hardware has to be good and long lasting with emphasis on getting it to do what I want. The cheaper it is, the harder it is to work with.

 

[BrokenStick]

"Late Night" drummer/bandleader Fred Armisen expresses himself well on the subject of expensive drums:

"Weirdly, and this happens with people who have extra money, but aren't really playing that much music," he continues, "when it's really expensive equipment. When you see a lot of hardware and brand new drums, that's when it looks like a hobby... I think a lot of the more respected and successful drummers have kind of scaled-down kits because they're so confident in their own playing... a lot of really accomplished drummers keep it simple."

https://www.audacy.com/national/music/fred-armisen-explains-what-your-drums-say-about-personality

And how many times have you gone to jam sessions with a load of different drummers all playing the same kit, and how differently do the drums sound from drummer-to-drummer? Okay, some of that may be their choice of sticks. I am betting, however, that some drummers just have better touch and feel, and that is why the same drum set can sound like dead meat under a ham-fisted player and sound lightyears better under the hands of a player with some touch and feel.

I am a hobbyist these days. While I have a nice kit, it is also small. My thing is to try and get as much variety of sound from as little as I can get away with. I've stripped off all the extra crashes and effects cymbals, all the cowbells, blocks and other clatter trappings. It's down to four drums, a couple of crashes that ride well and a ride cymbal that doesn't crash well unless you are looking to take Earth out of its orbit.

 

[RickP]

What a lot of us have seen to forgotten in this thread is that people’s incomes vary . Someone with a big income may think nothing of buying a drum kit that may seem obscenely expensive to someone of lesser means .
I see it being a common occurrence where someone proudly posts about some high end kit that they just bought . They may have done a lot of research and tried a number of kits and that one sounded best , but someone will chime in with comments like “ My such and such low end or mid price kit sounds just as good “.
We are all different with different incomes , actual playing experience etc and that should all be taken into account .
I have been playing over 50 years , I have owned 35+ Drum sets over the years . This is not to brag just to give you some insight to where I am coming from. Drums today are made extremely well across all price ranges . There are nuances where higher end kits shine more and when you play them you can hear it . Sure not everyone can afford them and that is a shame because I think everyone should be able to play great drums .
Now that being said - I have owned some flagship model kits and Boutique kits that were quite pricey . They sounded great and I liked them a lot . My band mates like them . I like to try different things and usually that means selling a kit to help finance another which is why many of those kits are no longer in my possession .
I am over the itch to buy more kits . I went back to my roots with Gretsch (USA Custom bought new ) and Ludwig (Classic Maple bought used for a fantastic deal ) . These were going to be my forever kits and they still will . I appreciate these drums because I love the sound of them , they are reliable and I love the looks of them and they are in the perfect ideal sizes for me .

I recently joined a second band situation that played louder music and I needed a drum set with larger sizes than I atypically play . I looked around and thought about buying a used High end kit but ultimately purchased a brand new Tama Starclassic Walnut Birch kit . It is a fantastic kit and did not set me back as much as I expected to pay which was a great bonus .

My friend JimmyM hit the nail on the head - Buy what you want and to heck what other people think . The only person that has to like the drums you own is you . We all have different circumstances like finances , musical needs etc . Which makes our buying circumstances different. A kit that met be great value to me , may not be to someone else .

 

[Jasta 11]

Kenny Aronoff records his Tama kit with a vintage Ludwig bass drum.....but then all bass drums are the same

Kenny only lets people know he plays a different brand bass drum to try and remain interesting, unlike his drumming. And Jeff and Kenny should never be mentioned in the same sentence. They both hold wooden sticks, and thats where the comparision ends. RIP Jeff...

 

[Bonnies1]

How often does this thread come up? Every two months? Three months? Four months? I suppose it's human nature, but got dang man, we just beat this one to death.

 

[Chris Whitten]

I don't really understand why some get so angry that another appreciates expensive drums and wants to own and play them.

 

[Tiges]

I don't really understand why some get so angry that another appreciates expensive drums and wants to own and play them.

I agree I have 2 kits Sonor Select Force and a Ludwig Classic Maple they both sound great and I enjoy playing them with pride I love em both equally.

 

[J.D.]

A Genesis G70 is a fantastic car, and will do most of what a Ferrari 488 will do (many things better) for 1/10th the $.

Having recently driven a 488 though...man, I was thinking: "I could take this up on the Tail Of The Dragon right now and launch it off the mountain and die with a huge smile on my face".

That said, I think my Renowns, at 1/3rd my DW $, close that gap significantly. Hard to make a case for the DWs other than the look. I think you're paying most of that $ for wild wood and a great story.

THAT said, I just played a DW Purpleheart snare, and...we wants it!

Paradox indeed.

 

[Bonnies1]

I'd also add that i rarely see unendorsed pro guys playing low to mid tier stuff. Whether that's for sound or ego I don't know. I don't ask them ;-)

 

[jda]

what was baseline standard Pro in 1968- among Ludwig, (Rogers and Slingerland no more) Gretsch, Sonor and Premier
can still be had today- took a while for some (Ludwig Legacy) to return (some Sonor Vintage) Gretsch never changed

the issue today is there is a level above and beyond that "standard of 1968". I don't know if it's necessary.
So I just play "what the old dudes played" albeit in new 0 miles
And having a Classic 60s set alongside that is no sin.

but the upper upper upper tiers- from some manufacturers today- I don't know if it's necessary

"I just like what the old dudes played"
(albeit in new condition
with some vintage on the side.

 

[yammyfan]

I'd also add that i rarely see unendorsed pro guys playing low to mid tier stuff. Whether that's for sound or ego I don't know. I don't ask them ;-)

Personally, if I was a pro and all I did was tour, record and teach, I would buy one of the "sure thing" kits aka Gretsch USA Custom or DW Collectors and be done with it.

Given that I only gig a couple of dozen times per year and never record, getting 95% of the performance of the top kits from kits that cost 1/4 or less satisfies my personal price : performance needs. I would want that 100% if my livelihood depended on it.

 

[Bonnies1]

Personally, if I was a pro and all I did was tour, record and teach, I would buy one of the "sure thing" kits aka Gretsch USA Custom or DW Collectors and be done with it.

Given that I only gig a couple of dozen times per year and never record, getting 95% of the performance of the top kits from kits that cost 1/4 or less satisfies my personal price : performance needs. I would want that 100% if my livelihood depended on it.

One exception I can think of and that's Aaron Sterling playing the cheap Japanese import kit on the first John Mayer he did.

This I suppose is tangential, but it's germane to this thread. And that is that the Internet is the great equalizer. You get on the Drum forum and beginners, hobbyists, retired guys and touring pros are all on the same thread, and somehow all their replies hold equal weight.

People say they can't hear the difference. What if a panel of professionals says they CAN hear the difference? Does that make it any more or less true? Does that hold any water for the guy who is just starting out and says he can't ? What kind of validation does someone need, or are we at the point now, where we are with certain things in the news, where there is no truth it's only someone's perception and opinion.

It's a strange thing, I tell you ...

 

[jda]

understand when the Japanese came in they were real marketeers (in cars drums.. everything)
Began as copying American and European brands.. then once they got a foothold.. started marketing on their way! Bigger heavier duty Flashier... near destroying the American and European makers..
Then they (talking Yamatamapearl..) started upper end on top of upper end..
so you have today the Reference Plus Plus Plus (I don't keep up) the the PHX plus plus plus the Tama Star star start starry starrry star

So a young fella looks at that and says wait- I don't want a Ludwig Gretsch --I want a Tama Star Star star Star Star Star..

and I remind
"Atomic Rooster didn't use no PHx"

 

[moodman]

I'm a drummer, I configure and tonally prepare my instrument. My music requires specifics that I satisfy with my choice of heads, tuning, technique and dynamics. I have found that some instruments are better than others at dynamic variances and projection. In my case, those drums cost more than an average kit. I also have cheaper drums that I love but realize how much more my high-dollar drums can do. For 24 of my 62 years drumming I've played my expensive kit and engineers and sound reinforcement techs have praised the way it sounds.
Some say they can tell the difference in the woods that drums are made from, others say you can't, I believe them both, we don't know what someone else's ears hear. It is none of my business what other drummers do and vice-versa. Drum and let drum.

 

[yammyfan]

....I've played my expensive kit and engineers and sound reinforcement techs have praised the way it sounds.

That makes total sense and is as it should be.

What would be interesting to learn is, given your overall approach, would that praise stop coming if you started showing up with less expensive but equally well prepared gear?

 

[Rattlin' Bones]

Someone needs to rig up a blind listening test for all this stuff. I am pretty sure that most of us would be surprised at the results, and I believe many who claim golden ears when it comes to identifying this or that would fail a true blind test. Under close microphones there are differences, but you get ten or so feet in front of a kit--never mind having a band to listen through--and most of those differences disappear. Snare drums would be my only exception to this in terms of sound. What we do have is a multiple biases and cognitive dissonance. And we have a whole lot of marketing from the manufacturers and the after-market hype from sellers and BELIEVERS that this or that sounds this way or that. Vintage drums have a sound because of "aged wood." Really? There is absolutely no way to prove that thesis. Shell construction and composition have way way less to do with the sound than the heads, hoops, sticks and the technique and touch of the player.
There is, in fact, no way to prove most of the sweeping grandiose claims you regularly and frequently see and hear about drum sounds. You simply can not eliminate all the variables to manipulate ONLY ONE at a time. Two drums are always going to sound different because they are TWO drums and have DIFFERENT heads on them. Even if tuned exactly the same and using the same sticks, you still have those variables in addition to whatever minute differences there might be in strike zone accuracy and velocity. Those could maybe be eliminated with a robot that always hit the exact same spot with the exact same angle and velocity.

The Drum Candy Podcast has conducted some testing along these lines with snare drums. It is about time someone took this on.

What might be different among all manufacturers' drums (vintage and modern alike) is how they feel and respond to the player. That will, of course, affect how he feels and responds to the drum. Those differences in feel might be the bearing edges and likely the hoops especially for rim shots. And it is possible that the shell construction contributes something to that as well.

In the end, drums either sound good, or they do not. There is also the visual aesthetic as well, but I am not going to comment on that (see below). We all know that Gretsch, Rogers and Camco drums of the '60s were sprinkled with magical pixie dust, and that is why they are the Crown of Creation as far as drums are concerned.

Full disclosure:
I am over 60 now, and it is possible I just don't have the hearing any longer to detect what ALL commercially interested parties and many drummers claim about various drums. On the other hand, I am blind, so I am used to using my ears and as my primary window on the World around me. It doesn't mean my ears are better, however. My ears didn't miraculously get better when I lost my sight. It's a physiological and anatomical thing. What did change was how I listened and interpreted what I did hear.

Mostly true.

Some drums are easier to tune to the sound YOU want. Like, I can get a Ludwig CM kit to sound musical to my liking, but their newer USA Club Dates sounded like cardboard to me. My Sakae Trilogy snare tunes just the way I want it to sound for jazz. My old vintage Acro I can't quite get that same sound. Cheap Tama snares I can get to sound my way. But dudes who put moon gel on their snares and toms, who muffle their kicks to death - you could get most any drum to sound that way. That takes the musical note out of the drum. Someone buying expensive kit and muffling it could do just as well with a cheap imported kit. I make my decisions on toms and kicks based on 1. do they sound musical unmuffled, 2. how lite are they to move, and 3. will it fall apart if I move it a lot. My Tama Superstar $700 kit checks all those boxes. On snares there are certain sounds I want. Jazz I want a different sound than if playing blues. Requires a few snares to cover what I need. I don't use any muffling for a live performance. In the studio I know engineers like to kill the snare ringing, but I buy my gear for what it sounds like live. I or an engineer can get most any tom/kick/snare to sound acceptable on a recording.

 

[harryconway]

OK ...... I'm gonna go back to the OP's original post (what a concept)

When buying a high end drum kit, you can spend a decent amount of money, let's say, 6-10k. Let's imagine you're getting a 5 or 6 piece kit (which are probably the most common)

You've decided in your "hypothetical" that we're not counting the snare. I don't think a 5 or 6 piece is the standard purchase. Yamaha PHX and Craviotto names have come up ..... so I'm gonna run with those. Darn near every Craviotto kit I've ever seen, has been 1 rack tom, 1 floor tom, 1 bass drum. 3 pieces. Most every Yamaha PHX kit I've ever seen, has either been 1 or 2 rack toms, 1 floor tom, 1 bass drum. 3 or 4 piece.

Now it's likely if you're spending that much money on a kit, you've probably already got a few nice snare drums, so you're just getting a kick and toms

So in the end, you're pay a lot of money for... toms. The most unused part of a drum kit.

On what I think is the "standard purchase" ...... it's roughly a 50/50 split, between toms and bass drum. What puts your "dream kit" over the top, is your configuration of 2 up, 2 down, or 3 up, 2 down (or however you're splitting it).

Now, i think we've all figured out that a kick is a kick is a kick.

I think you're waaaaay off the mark there.

Most kicks, with a pillow in them, will sound like a thump.

Maybe true-ish ...... but I have never, ever, ever ....... seen a Craviotto or PHX (or Sonor SQ2 or any other super high end bass drum) with a pillow in it And at your represented price range, you are talking super high end.

Go used, and you can get a kit like this Sakae for under $5K.