THE HEEL TOE THREAD

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britchops

Guest
heel/toe, or moeller technique is the best. transformed my playing - foot and hand technique. makes playing sooooo easy too.

britchops
 

Les Ismore

Platinum Member
I feel like heel toe should have a different name. When I first learned it, I literally tried playing with the back of my heel to the tips of my toes, and footboards generally aren't long enough for this. Once I figured it out, it's absolutely nothing like its name.

You're right, what you learned is 'not' like its name- Heel/Toe. There's the confusion.

Heel/toe is just as the name implies, the heel makes the first strike, the toe follows, its a walking motion. So yes you're limited to foot size fitting the pedal board.

There's a lot of confusion from people describing/showing a double stroke that uses the toe/ball of the foot to depress the foot board accentuated by dropping the heel.

There is a stroke that exists in which the heel of the foot contacts the pedal board first sending the beater into the head, followed by a strike on the foot board from the toe creating the second hit of a double, this stroke has a name, it is called heel/toe. Few people can do this stroke w/any proficiency, its very difficult to learn.

If you have your foot hanging off of the foot board and you do a quick double stroke with your toe planted by dropping your heel, that is another type of stroke that exists and its being improperly referred to as heel/toe.

When someone says bass/snare, its not FT/snare, the FT imitating the bass drum stroke.


Pete Riley demonstrates a simple slide technique to pull off a double, its not heel/toe. He doesn't use the words "Heel/toe", he's not claiming its heel/toe, b/c its not. A lot of people confuse this stroke with heel/toe. This stroke has limitations due to the fact in it there's a place in it where you lose contact with the foot board while having to change direction at the same time, this creates a demand for balance. Pete uses his right foot to balance, and maintain his stability.



Jarred Faulk (@2:52) describes it correctly, and (@ 3:00) 'illustrates' it correctly, but then @ 3:11 he tells you what he's really doing ("... a toe/toe stroke).

Faulk is causing confusion here. He uses the term 'Heel/toe' to create an interest, then shows a an advanced toe slide technique where little to no slide is used.

3:22- He admits right here "The first heel hit won't actually create any stroke." Right, its then not 'heel/toe' b/c heel/toe means the first heel contact creates the first impact of the double.

3:32 He shows both strokes are made by the toe. So why the hell he calls this Heel/toe is beyond me. It creates nothing but confusion.

4:56 This is not heel/toe, there's no reason to strike the dead portion (behind the hinge) of the foot board with your heel to make this stroke happen. Kinda senseless, but he describes it with meaning. He's right "That's actually ridiculous."

5:46 there's your stroke, not heel/toe, both contacts are made with the ball (toe) of the foot.


As I said b/f, there's no copyright on the name, so people can call whatever they're doing heel/toe, tho in reality there is a stroke which employs the first stroke on the board from the heel causing the first hit of a double.

This is Jarred Faulk's version of a heel/toe stroke, that's what he (and others) should be saying. In reality its a heel actuated double stroke, not a heel/toe stroke proper.
 

feldiefeld

Senior Member
The technique I use is more of a "front/back"....kind of like what Weckl described in his video from the '80's, "Back to Basics." It is not "heel/toe".....I think of it as "front of the ball of your foot/back of the ball of your foot." When this technique is played fast, it LOOKS like a slide, so some might call this technique the slide....but I don't think of that way....what looks like a slide is really just the result of the "front/back" motion.

If anyone has interest in checking it out further, I wrote an article about it at:

http://bit.ly/HqfeCQ

This technique has worked for me for over 30 years. I can promise you it works like a charm once you master it.
 
1) So people like 'Morgan' from Henker, and Guido Wyss on double beater pedals like the giant-step and dualist pedals are using heel-toe method (Waterson type method, not Faulke)? They're going so fast I can't really tell exactly what they are doing, eg RHRTLHLT (doubles)or RHLHRTLT (chasing).

HENKER http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAuXrThJXk
GUIDO WYSS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvQArNyJMsY



2) TIM WATERSON http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM - at the end of this video I found it hard to differentiate between what he is doing and Jojo`'s technique. Can anyone explain the difference for me?
 

Arky

Platinum Member
As for that Henker drummer and Guido Wyss... Nobody can do around 300 bpm 16th notes with single strokes - at least not the regular version although there's a few drummers who can do 300 w/ swivel - which are singles, too but some don't consider them 'real' singles.

Honestly I still haven't fully grasped how quad pedals work but look at that Henker drummer's foot speed - it looks like 'normal' but produces more notes. You can absolutely forget that anybody could hit those speeds 'for real' if not using quad pedals or some technological thingy other than standard pedals. So you're doing very well if you're hitting 16th notes in the 200-250 bpm range.

As for Tim: In that example he's using constant release but (for demo purposes) brings his heel down all the way. Now if you keep the heel off the pedal this would be Tim's "pump(ing)" motion as explained on his DVD (highly recommended!). For 'real' heel toe you'd typically lift your toe after the toe stroke while with constant release the toe will stay on the pedalboard all the time. Personally I prefer constant release but do bring down my heels all the way down like in Tim's example, especially at higher speed, for more power. Of course Tim can do a lot more - in fact pretty much anything one could think of with feet. Check out his DVD, there's some unbelievable stuff there. He can hit around 360 bpm with double strokes, for a full minute!

PS: It's *Jared Falk* - pretty simple spelling actually.
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
Heres 2 videos I made of my technique, Its called HEEL/TOE but i refer to it more of a double stroke.. I have my springs cranked up for the rebound and I made these vids right after i learnt the technique.. After a few months of tweaking settings and practice 250bpm 16ths is not a problem and its got alot tighter... you don't NEED axis pedals for this but it does help to have a long board.
It can be done on a short board too it would just take getting used to the motion.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGaAfDkhLM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FTSLL2tD0E

Heres a slightly more recent sound clip of the techinque.. your pedal settings make a big difference at these speeds to not have a "bouncy" feel to it... slowly getting it close at 240bpm.. still needs some work

https://soundcloud.com/scott-patterson-10/240-bpm-practicing#play
 
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Asianmyster

Junior Member
Pete Riley demonstrates a simple slide technique to pull off a double, its not heel/toe. He doesn't use the words "Heel/toe", he's not claiming its heel/toe, b/c its not. A lot of people confuse this stroke with heel/toe. This stroke has limitations due to the fact in it there's a place in it where you lose contact with the foot board while having to change direction at the same time, this creates a demand for balance. Pete uses his right foot to balance, and maintain his stability.

This is a awesome video on how to use that technique thanks for posting it
 

beyondbetrayal

Platinum Member
I'm actually sold on the demons... but i have only tried the axis a-2's not the a21's

i know they hit a bit harder.. but i suggest trying both before you buy... if you havn't played axis before they take some getting used to...
 

JasperGTR

Senior Member
I've got some tama speed cobras double pedals for sale, would anyone be interested?
Yes. I have 2 already, looking for a third (and then maybe some singles - to accompany my other double-bass kit).

Depends on price/condition/location/shipping method. Feel free to PM me.

What brought me into this thread (other than it being posted as a new/recent post), is the heel-toe method. I've always just played singles (hard for me to do above 240BPMs), so my comfort zone is around 200BPMs. I guess I do the 'slide' thing a little (as noted previously).

I've GOT to spend some time getting this down. Will work on it over the next several months. Maybe I can finally do 260-280BPMs without getting tired so damn fast.

(I usually do fast intricate rhythms, with more kicking, starts/stops, patters, etc..., to mask the fact that I get tired)
 

Arky

Platinum Member
Re: Interlaced constant release/heel toe? by creepy Transylvanian guy

Check this dude out. Anyone else can play interlaced doubles? It sounds so good, without triggers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNg_9b8FBhA
I found that video a few months ago - impressive! He got that technique up to a stunning level of speed, control and sonic evenness. Seems there are quite few people who can do this.

Yes I do play interlaced doubles but my experience is they feel very comfy up to a certain speed (although if you get too slow this technique won't really be of any benefit, in the lower speed range people would usually just use singles) but for top speed I'd use the 'straight doubles' method (heel-toe w/ one foot, then one double stroke w/ my other foot etc). And getting all strokes even (both rhythmically and level wise) is something that takes a long time - not there yet. I would lose control at around 220 bpm - can mock 240 and even 250 w/ interlaced - trying to play along to that video - but it's just not clean. (Singles do work though but that would be my max speed.) Give me a few more years, haha.

Absolutely go for learning both interlaced and straight doubles, it's worth it.
I've bookmarket this video, for future reference (progress check, if any). Thanks for sharing!
 
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qualendi

Junior Member
I play the slide technique, and what I've just learned is that in order for it to work, the foot must slide. The sole of the human foot has a good grip, try wearing some socks or footwear that has less friction.
Hopefully this theory can be applied to the heel toe technique.
And don't expect to grasp it overnight. Some drummers take weeks, others may take years. Just do a few minutes practicing this each day, and start slow. Eventually your muscle will memorize your movements and it will all feel natural.
Just my 2 cents.
 

CheeseCake95

Junior Member
Hi guys,
I'm a literal heel-toe convert, like i actually do the entire foot on pedal and heel drop etc... Any advice for beater distance ? I tend to set mine about 4-5 inches with full spring tension on a Pearl Demon drive. Any endurance exercises ? not sure if its the new set full tension and pushing max 260bpm really burns out my stamina, I noticed i don't last as long as i used to on lower tension. Any advice would be fantastic
 

toddmc

Gold Member
Hi guys,
I'm a literal heel-toe convert, like i actually do the entire foot on pedal and heel drop etc... Any advice for beater distance ? I tend to set mine about 4-5 inches with full spring tension on a Pearl Demon drive. Any endurance exercises ? not sure if its the new set full tension and pushing max 260bpm really burns out my stamina, I noticed i don't last as long as i used to on lower tension. Any advice would be fantastic

I personally find that medium/loose spring tension is the way to go with my Pearl Demons when doing heel toe (no need to work as hard). I also have the beater a bit closer (maybe 3 inches) as I'm more interested in speed- not volume (I do use triggers though).
 

bud7h4

Silver Member
I play the slide technique, and what I've just learned is that in order for it to work, the foot must slide. The sole of the human foot has a good grip, try wearing some socks or footwear that has less friction.
Hopefully this theory can be applied to the heel toe technique.
And don't expect to grasp it overnight. Some drummers take weeks, others may take years. Just do a few minutes practicing this each day, and start slow. Eventually your muscle will memorize your movements and it will all feel natural.
Just my 2 cents.


Lol, that is a fact.
 
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