THE HEEL TOE THREAD

drummerbum

Junior Member
yea, i wear i size 12.5 and i just dont wear my shoes when i play and it works out fine. i just move my foot sideways just a little bit and i can play better then all my friends!
 
B

Beat Spector

Guest
ok,

being busy behind tghe drumkid for 9 years. yet only last month started to learn the heel-toe method.
Man it is hard.
In my "calm" bands i always played heel down, in metalband i did the heel up.
(not one teacher told me about heel/toe, i mentioned in my previous posts that belgium is NOT a great drumming nation, i foud out about the heel/toe only here)

So, i'm having kinda extreme difficulties "unlearning" what i've learned and getting used to H/T method
A few weeks most of my everyday practice is this hH/T
Yet i experience very very little (read : almost no) progress in my playing.
even if I speed up just a tiny little, i catch myself just playing heel up automatically.
I'm kinda becomming a bit desperate cuz it doesn't seem to work out for me.
Feels like I can't overcome the "burden" of playing 9 years heel up....

I know the techinique, i've seen all the video's, believe me, i can explain H/T method from beginning to end. that's not the problem.
What i desperetaly like to hear from you guys is: are there any tips and or tricks to "unlearn" my bad habbits (automatically go heel up) faster?

thx a bunch
 

Paradiddle my snizzle

Senior Member
1. Dont think that heelup and heeldown is wrong and helltoe is right. The best woud be to be able to use them all naturally. So dont think of it as you have to unlearn what you have learned - you just have to learn something new.

2. I think that with a LOT of "heeltoe-practise-sessions" you will get it naturally in the higher tempos to, but there's no reason to have those "heeltoe-practise-sessions", unless you need it very very soon. Instead you just practise your other stuff - like new grooves with difficult sticking etc. - and then be sure to use the heeltoe every time there's a doublestroke in the bass. This way your getting used to the feeling and it will become naturall to you and you dont even "really" practise it. I use this kind of practising all the time.

3. About the "heeltoe-practise-sessions" i dont know if you go heel-toe-heel-toe.... but you can also play other exercises. This is one i learned a long time ago from a teacher and it helped my heeldown VERY much:

RH=right hand, LH= left hand, RF= right foot.
Capital letters are accents and lower case are unaccented. Here goes:

lh RH RF RF rh LH RF RF and so on.

The way you practise this exercise is to start slow and go up tempo untill you fail and then you stop and start over.



Hope this helps - it took heel of a long time to write... :)
 
B

Beat Spector

Guest
thanx a lot!


but no, i don't go H/T H/t like derrick says in his video i try to integrate it,
but from the moment i'm gotta pay attention a bit more to my hands...i neglect my heel toe method.
So no, i know heel up and/or heel down is not wrong, but it slows me down incredibly in learning this new techinique.
I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...

but again: Thank you, i'll integrate the exercise...
 

Paradiddle my snizzle

Senior Member
Beat Spector said:
I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...
Maybe you're right, but hey - cheer up!!

I forgot to say that the exercise sounds pretty cool with the LH on the high tom or snare and the RH on the floor tom.

I'm glad i could help:)
 
after watching derrick pope's video on heel toe, (thouroughly impressed) i tried it for the

first time today... and did it. not well. but i did do it, and with a good amount of practice, i

should be able to confidentally incorporate it into my playing in no time. it was a lot

easier than i expected, just as derrick has said in the video. (here is the link for those that

don't know to which video i'm referring: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope
3.html).

so yah... just thought i'd throw this post in here. with the help of that video, the heel toe

isn't out of reach for anyone. (thanks derrick- keep up the good work)

after i get this down... the moeller technique is next!
 

Moonman66

Junior Member
You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!
 

gringo998

Senior Member
i grew up playing early punkrock, so being able to play doubled really fast was sorta necessary, and when i learned the heel toe, it becam easier.


i cant produce a straight series of 16ths, but doubles are so quick and easy for me. its become second nature. they sound like flams, and theyre at a point, where i can control them, theyre not random, its really nice
 
Moonman66 said:
You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!
i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.
 

JIM_fear

Senior Member
Never Stop! woohoo! said:
The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?
My spring tension is really high, but i've heard of others who use low tension. So, basically it's whatever is more comfortable for you. I'd try a higher tension to see if it would make a difference.
 

JIM_fear

Senior Member
radiofriendlyunitshifter said:
i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.
The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!
 
JIM_fear said:
The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!
but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.
 

JIM_fear

Senior Member
radiofriendlyunitshifter said:
but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.
Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.
 
JIM_fear said:
Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.
hmmm perhaps we are talking about a different heel-toe technique? the technique i

use (as shown here: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope3.html) does use

the heel.
 

LimaBeans

Member
Yes, there are two versions of "heel-toe." This has already been said many many many times. There's the way D. Pope does it and the way Jojo Mayer does it. I'm not completely sure which one Tim Waterson uses, but soon I'll try to post a video of the second version of "heel-toe" in which foot size doesn't matter the least bit (like the video from the Pearl forums - playing heel-toe with nothing but a big toe on the foot board). I would've already had the video up, but my brother forgot to bring his camera home from college.
 

Ian Ballard

Silver Member
I've yet to really integrate that technique with the bass drum. I do however, use a heel-toe thing with the hihat when playing 2&4 jazz, a al Buddy Rich. I also use a pseudo heel-toe to do the "splash" thing with the hats.

I use a technique where I swing my foot side to side, producing a stroke with each swing with amazing speed gains. If I have time, I'll post a vid demonstrating it.

But, I'd like to pump up the arsenal a bit and I'll try the heel-toe someday.
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
I'd like to go on a slightly different track here.

For the past few months I have been working on doubles with the feet. I have done them heel down, heel up and heel toe. I recorded my self many times.

After listening back, I realize that the sound produced by heel toe is the least MUSICAL of all three methods. The first note has a tendency to be louder and it sounds harsh to my ear. Heel up doubles sound the best.

Heel toe is definitely easier. For example, I can play heel up double strokes at 140-150 BPM yet heel toe doubles at 200 BPM +.

Yet, after listening to the playbacks and thinking about it, I have decided to concentrate on the heel-up doubles. Heel up doubles demand a certain fluidity from the ankle that no other technique develops as well. Heel toe doubles are just too "gimmicky" for me. The motion is a good exercise for the leg but the sound is terrible and you can get away with relatively sloppy technique.

Now, Tim Waterson has developed his heel-toe to such a high level that he can probably control it anyway he likes but even he says that the accent falls heavily on the first note of the heel toe double. That's one reason why he uses a Vruk attachment sometimes. It allows the second stroke to feel and sound like the first. But, that's not the way I want to go, frankly.

We all have to make choices about where to direct our efforts. I just decided that this way is best for me and I wanted to share it with u guys.
 
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