The Fundamental Single Stroke

That is very clearly demonstrated. I also think the single stroke is the most fundamental aspect of drumming.

However, as a foundation, I think one should take the Stone 'free' or 'full' stroke, as shown here by John Riley. The rest then follows from various accenting techniques (up, down, tap strokes).


Basically, the stick guides the hand, not vice versa. This was taught by Morello (Hot Licks video called 'Drum method' which I can't find online).
 
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Yes, thank you for your input. This is probably going to be a ridiculously long post, because you brought up some important points! And yes, I have that old Morello video on DVD, there is some good stuff on there.
I watched the John Riley video. What he is doing with his right hand in the video is clearly visible, and maybe I am imagining it, it but it sure looks like he is snapping the stick back into his right hand with his fingers. So to me it looks like the stick is rebounding, and then he is catching it, not guiding it back up as he claims, which in effect would be very difficult to do, because on a hard surface rebound is almost instantaneous. And why would you need to work that hard to let a stick rebound? I mean snapping your wrist back as fast as you can—the whole idea is with rebound is to let the stick do the work for you. I prefer the Jojo Mayer explanation of the free stroke, which is how I do it. But anyway, later in the video when John Riley puts the stick between his middle fingers, he shows you his actual stroke, which is the same as the fundamental single stroke I demonstrated! And the same as Joe Morello’s stroke—btw—you just don’t see the elbow coming out when Riley demonstrates it, but I believe the underlying motion is there.

So I realize that the free stroke is the prevailing fundamental method for teaching drummers, but let me tell you why I think that is backwards:
None of the world-class drummers today that started drumming at an early age began by learning the free stroke. Now, how could I possibly know that? Because, if you put a pair of drumsticks into a young child’s hands, they will hang on for dear life and use their entire arms to strike the drums! Why? Because this is the only way they can play them. They put their whole body into it. They can’t just use their fingers, or their wrists, they don’t have that kind of dexterity. I’ve seen it time and time again, with my own children and other kids. I personally watched a 9 year-old virtuoso destroy on the drum set, and he wasn’t using any rebound. What I believe happened when these world-class drummers were young, is they developed the fundamental single stroke I demonstrated naturally, maybe from watching other great drummers or maybe just by swinging a firmly held drumstick naturally and freely.

So my point is, you learn how to move a drumstick with the greatest amount of power and control by holding onto it, not by letting go of it.

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Hi @Alex Luce , thanks for sharing your video.

Isn't it interesting how technique, even discussion of "fundamentals", can vary so much from drummer to drummer? You are clearly an accomplished drummer, yet your technique differs so vastly from my own in virtually every way. That's probably one of the great things about an artform and the different paths to mastery.

Here's my own take on the topic:


I would imagine that you would disagree with some of my approaches here, and that is a great thing. I have always said we should fight against dogmatism within this pursuit.
 
Of course, like they used to say “ There is more than one way to skin a cat”

I personally like Ed Soph’s approach. The whole video is great, but the stroke demonstration starts around the five minute mark.

 
Jonathan Curtis said:
Hi @Alex Luce , thanks for sharing your video.

Isn't it interesting how technique, even discussion of "fundamentals", can vary so much from drummer to drummer? You are clearly an accomplished drummer, yet your technique differs so vastly from my own in virtually every way. That's probably one of the great things about an artform and the different paths to mastery.

Here's my own take on the topic:


I would imagine that you would disagree with some of my approaches here, and that is a great thing. I have always said we should fight against dogmatism within this pursuit.
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I watched your video. You certainly have a light touch, and you play with precision. But we are kind of talking about two different things here. You are focused on the single stroke rudiment, but I am trying to describe an arm stroke that is at the core foundation of all drumming. Most of the drumming you do incorporates rebound. But in a lot of the drumming I do there is almost no rebound.
For example, I play in an AC/DC tribute band. Phil Rudd is playing straight 8ths on the high-hat 99% of the time, hitting massive rimshots on the snare drum, and occasionally doing a fill on some huge toms that are tuned down low. There is no rebound anywhere. So I can’t be using a fundamental technique that primarily relies on rebound, I need a stroke that lets me put the natural power of my entire arm into play.
 
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Push pull stroke said:
Don’t overthink. Just hit the drum lol
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I totally agree. Your stroke should be 100% subconscious. But to get there, you have to initially be conscious of it…at least when you’re an adult.
If you happened to be three years-old, pick up some sticks, start whacking some drums and end up being a virtuoso, you probably never even thought about how you hit the drums at all.
 
Alex Luce said:
I totally agree. Your stroke should be 100% subconscious. But to get there, you have to initially be conscious of it…at least when you’re an adult.
If you happened to be three years-old, pick up some sticks, start whacking some drums and end up being a virtuoso, you probably never even thought about how you hit the drums at all.
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As one of my martial arts teachers used to say “just do the form”.
 
Fundamental stroke to me means what you do for a musical sound playing single notes-- same way we treat technique with timpani, concert bass drum, triangle, whatever. No particular technique required, except to get a good sound and place the note accurately at a musical volume. That's the starting place, it's not necessarily the same as what's going to be good for technical/high performance drumming.

For my purposes, the stroke for technical playing would be about a 2-5" wrist stroke, still striking for tone. The high sticking / rebound / power things are attractive, but to me it's kind of arena technique-- it doesn't reflect my daily musical reality-- what I do, and who I listen to. I've spent a lot of time with that and I think in the end it was mostly a waste.
 
Paul Blood said:
Of course, like they used to say “ There is more than one way to skin a cat”

I personally like Ed Soph’s approach. The whole video is great, but the stroke demonstration starts around the five minute mark.

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Yes, I love Ed Soph, I think he has a great understanding of technique and is a fine teacher. I watched two of those videos…but I couldn’t find the third one. I was curious if you ever practiced the motion he demonstrated in the second video? That was even more extreme than the stroke I demonstrated…ha ha!
 
toddbishop said:
toddbishop said:
Fundamental stroke to me means what you do for a musical sound playing single notes-- same way we treat technique with timpani, concert bass drum, triangle, whatever. No particular technique required, except to get a good sound and place the note accurately at a musical volume. That's the starting place, it's not necessarily the same as what's going to be good for technical/high performance drumming.

For my purposes, the stroke for technical playing would be about a 2-5" wrist stroke, still striking for tone. The high sticking / rebound / power things are attractive, but to me it's kind of arena technique-- it doesn't reflect my daily musical reality-- what I do, and who I listen to. I've spent a lot of time with that and I think in the end it was mostly a waste.
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Yes, okay, well you make a good point. The fundamental stroke I demonstrated is not a musical way of playing the drums, not at all. I mean you would literally be hitting the drums like a robot if you didn’t open your grip and allow motion to occur in your hand. It would also create an extremely unmusical sound, because it you don’t hold a stick with a loose grip and let it vibrate, the drumheads/cymbals will produce a dull thud instead of a ringing tone.
However, this doesn’t change the fact that the arm is designed to and can very effectively create the motion in my video. And any healthy person can learn and create this motion, because anatomically we are all the alike. Also, I demonstrated the largest range of the stroke, but I can create an entire range of the exact identical motion from very small taps to the large fundamental motion I demonstrated…all with a firm grip using zero movement in my hand. What is the significance of this? What it means is that every note I play, from the smallest ghost notes to Moeller rimshots, are derived from this motion.

There is a very important, profound point I am trying to make here which I am not sure is being understood. There are two ways a drummer can create motion:
1. The motion between the hand and fingers, or the “grip” motion, or
2. The motion of the arm or “stroke” motion

So in theory you should be able to separate these motions from each other. For example, I can hold my arm still and only allow motion in my hand “grip”, or I can close my grip and only move my arm “stroke”.

Getting back to your original point, why these motions are always taught together are for musical purposes. But I challenge anyone on the drummerworld forum to close their grip and use only their arm to create a drumming stroke. You should be able to do this! If you can’t create a smooth and precise drumming stroke with a closed grip, you have to ask yourself, is my technique all it can be?
 
Alex Luce said:
Yes, okay, well you make a good point. The fundamental stroke I demonstrated is not a musical way of playing the drums, not at all. I mean you would literally be hitting the drums like a robot if you didn’t open your grip and allow motion to occur in your hand. It would also create an extremely unmusical sound, because it you don’t hold a stick with a loose grip and let it vibrate, the drumheads/cymbals will produce a dull thud instead of a ringing tone.
However, this doesn’t change the fact that the arm is designed to and can very effectively create the motion in my video. And any healthy person can learn and create this motion, because anatomically we are all the alike. Also, I demonstrated the largest range of the stroke, but I can create an entire range of the exact identical motion from very small taps to the large fundamental motion I demonstrated…all with a firm grip using zero movement in my hand. What is the significance of this? What it means is that every note I play, from the smallest ghost notes to Moeller rimshots, are derived from this motion.

There is a very important, profound point I am trying to make here which I am not sure is being understood. There are two ways a drummer can create motion:
1. The motion between the hand and fingers, or the “grip” motion, or
2. The motion of the arm or “stroke” motion

So in theory you should be able to separate these motions from each other. For example, I can hold my arm still and only allow motion in my hand “grip”, or I can close my grip and only move my arm “stroke”.

Getting back to your original point, why these motions are always taught together are for musical purposes. But I challenge anyone on the drummerworld forum to close their grip and use only their arm to create a drumming stroke. You should be able to do this! If you can’t create a smooth and precise drumming stroke with a closed grip, you have to ask yourself, is my technique all it can be?
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I wasn't referring to your post specifically, just adding another viewpoint-- the 16-36" power stroke as fundamental stroke is such a popular idea now, with whatever technique, and I haven't found it to be real useful theory in my playing life.

toddbishop said:
For my purposes, the stroke for technical playing would be about a 2-5" wrist stroke, still striking for tone. The high sticking / rebound / power things are attractive, but to me it's kind of arena technique-- it doesn't reflect my daily musical reality-- what I do, and who I listen to. I've spent a lot of time with that and I think in the end it was mostly a waste.
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I should correct that-- it wasn't a waste-- it just didn't help me play better in probably 95% of playing situations I've ever been in.
 
been interesting to see the banter here..

@Alex Luce : I think most everyone is getting what you are saying, not really refuting it. I feel the same way...

Using arm is not a bad thing, as long as it is done in the correct way at the correct time. 60% of my students are beginners - 5th grade band - and I would never teach them what you are talking about at first. I would wait a year or two for things to develop. I feel like the arm use is a "garnish" to the foundational use of wrist and finger muscles first. In my situation, that much arm would be counterproductive for how and what my kids play on a daily basis.....but by the time they are getting older - and are adding drum set - I start getting into arm use.
 
As an at-best average player that has been practicing a lot more in the last few years and has properly booked-out so to speak, I'm detecting the truth a least for me is free stroke as taught by Bill Bachman on his excellent site, and seems to be corroborated by both Jonathon's and Todd's methodology or statements. And that is that the free stroke is the foundational move, with the fingers becoming more and more in control as tempos rise or stroke height decreases, or both. Bringing Moehler into it is just common sense arm whip on heavy accents and the like.
So yes, I feel the free stroke is the foundation, but as Todd said most set players live in the more finger-centric volumes and tempos.

Side note for Jonathan: I was playing Single Strokes 1 from your book on lunch today, and my wife, a violinist, and I were discussing/devining some of the notation's intentions. Now that I've seen the video above, I know the answer!
 
Alex Luce said:
Yes, I love Ed Soph, I think he has a great understanding of technique and is a fine teacher. I watched two of those videos…but I couldn’t find the third one. I was curious if you ever practiced the motion he demonstrated in the second video? That was even more extreme than the stroke I demonstrated…ha ha!
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I was a student of Ed Soph during the fall and spring semesters of 1989-1990 at the University of North Texas, so it's been awhile! But yes, I remember practicing those motions with Ed, and also I remember working on the jazz ride cymbal beat at supper SLOW tempos, brushes, big band chart reading, transcribing and a bunch of other stuff too! He's great teacher and he taught me so much.

As far as technique goes, before Ed Soph, I had studied with Richard Wilson and Murary Sprivack. Completely the opposite approach as Ed's, but he never refuted or in any way bad mouthed my previous teachers techniques, he just presented new possibilities with a looser approach which made sense to me.

And Alex, I really like your approach to the single stroke. Did you come up with that or did you learn it from your teachers? Or a hybrid perhaps? Anyways thanks for sharing your ideas on technique with us!
 
I always envied good single strokers, never was one. Slow is OK, but not as fast as the big boys. Which is weird, because I can play closed paradiddles all mixed-up all day long, in triplets or anything. I guess I'm lazy. I want the rudiments to do all the hard work. :LOL:
:ROFLMAO:
 
Paul Blood said:
I was a student of Ed Soph during the fall and spring semesters of 1989-1990 at the University of North Texas, so it's been awhile! But yes, I remember practicing those motions with Ed, and also I remember working on the jazz ride cymbal beat at supper SLOW tempos, brushes, big band chart reading, transcribing and a bunch of other stuff too! He's great teacher and he taught me so much.

As far as technique goes, before Ed Soph, I had studied with Richard Wilson and Murary Sprivack. Completely the opposite approach as Ed's, but he never refuted or in any way bad mouthed my previous teachers techniques, he just presented new possibilities with a looser approach which made sense to me.

And Alex, I really like your approach to the single stroke. Did you come up with that or did you learn it from your teachers? Or a hybrid perhaps? Anyways thanks for sharing your ideas on technique with us!
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This is cool, Paul, I was also a student at North Texas from ‘84 to ‘86, and Ed Soph wasn’t a teacher at that time, but he came and did a clinic and I remember his amazing brush strokes.
I was a practicing nut back then, usually at least six hours a day if I could. Over the summer of ‘85 I was still at school playing in those little practice rooms all alone, and I was approached by a fellow student who told me I could probably make a lot more progress if I adjusted my technique—because I was all forearms and fingers back then—and hardly any wrist movement. Really, I probably had the worst technique a drummer could have. So this student had learned the stroke from another student drummer who was also his roommate. I was told it was based on studying the fundamental movements of the greatest drummers, such as Steve Gadd and Vinnie Colaiuta. Anyway, I learned it over that summer, and basically relearned how to play the drums using this stroke as my guide. Because once you get it, this stroke is a feeling that takes over your entire upper body, and then you can’t not do it anymore! The closest experience I can compare it to is learning how to ride a bike…once you know how to do it, you just know, and that feeling of balance never goes away.
So yeah, it is based upon some ideas, observations and real work of drummers who were attending North Texas in the mid-1980s. And Incidentally, when Matt Chamberlain showed up in the Fall of 1985, I started looking at his stroke every chance I got, and I knew I was on the right track. He was a monster all the way back then. Maybe he left just before you got there, or did you get a chance to meet him?
 
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