Technique vs. groove.

GOOSE72

Well-known member
I mean, its the same the other way too. There's some technically proficient drummers out there who have stunted groove...an example I like to point out is Vinny Appice. He clearly has chops, but I always felt his groove felt a bit stilted. And some of the older DCI drummers who couldn't groove to save their life, but could run circles around the best drumset players in technique (thankfully DCI of the past 10-20 years is a lot more fluid so things groove more).
You pointed out Vinny Appice. You said he clearly has chops but you always felt his groove felt a bit stunted. Can you explain that in more detail I'm not sure I understand what you meant?
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
You pointed out Vinny Appice. You said he clearly has chops but you always felt his groove felt a bit stunted. Can you explain that in more detail I'm not sure I understand what you meant?
Well, let's take probably the most famous song that he played drums on: Holy Diver. He's not playing a money beat.....his beats are more complex than standard rock beats, and he has fills that consist of licks like Hertas (which require more than bare bones technique to pull off in time) and syncopated cymbal hits, etc. etc. However, I've always felt that his playing is too tight, too rigid. It doesn't have a looseness or flow to it that I appreciate out of the vast majority of professional drummers.

The best thing to do is just to listen to that song, and hopefully you can understand the words I'm saying to how he plays it.
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
Well, let's take probably the most famous song that he played drums on: Holy Diver. He's not playing a money beat.....his beats are more complex than standard rock beats, and he has fills that consist of licks like Hertas (which require more than bare bones technique to pull off in time) and syncopated cymbal hits, etc. etc. However, I've always felt that his playing is too tight, too rigid. It doesn't have a looseness or flow to it that I appreciate out of the vast majority of professional drummers.

The best thing to do is just to listen to that song, and hopefully you can understand the words I'm saying to how he plays it.
I listened to it and I don't understand the words your saying regarding how he plays it. 2 things I'm sure of. You didn't play drums on that song and I didn't either. He's famous and we are not. Appreciate you though.
 

Jeff Almeyda

Senior Consultant
This argument is just used by "groove" guys to excuse their lazy practice habits.

Every good working player needs both.

I can play at 240 BPM and I can also lock in with a click at 30 BPM. Most serious players can.
 

GetAgrippa

Platinum Member
I have this DVD at home and i think it's a great instructional DVD on this subject. You can learn how to groove.

The “Art and Science” of Groove. Man I like the title like peas and carrots. What does he mean by “science” in his book? The art part I get but curious does he get into brain function or more music mechanics?
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
It may as well be from a listener's standpoint. It's like listening to several drum machines sync'd perfectly together. It's entirely mechanical; as close to robotic as it gets. It's the military academy of drumming where everyone is in lockstep. The elitism of technique, void of any soul, creativity or individualism.
The OP's graphic would be representative of DCI if both legs were amputated.......... and the right side of the brain removed.

It's a great way to develop discipline and technique, but doesn't always carry over onto the drum set, especially in a musical situation.
Orchestral playing is almost as bad.
 

moxman

Silver Member
I was going to post this anyway - but it fits with this topic:
Technique, groove.. ya gotta have them both but groove is the fun part for me 'If it ain't got that swing..'

So here's a good example of technique and groove.. 1st part is a ton of awesome technique and underlying groove - 2nd part is more of a heavy groove with rock solid technique. Ladies and gentlemen.. the one and only.. Todd Sucherman!
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
This argument is just used by "groove" guys to excuse their lazy practice habits.

Every good working player needs both.

I can play at 240 BPM and I can also lock in with a click at 30 BPM. Most serious players can.
Are you a working drummer? If so at what level? I hear that term thrown around a lot. And not to throw water on your fire but have you seen these kids now days? Like 6 year olds playing crazy good. Anyway good to hear from you again Jeff.
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
Yeah I think it's just hard to get it together always has been. You always have competiton. Ain't nothin new. Always been a trap.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
Yeah I think it's just hard to get it together always has been. You always have competiton. Ain't nothin new. Always been a trap.
Used to be you could scrape a meager living together as a decent local drummer. Then you had to be a really good local drummer. Now you have to be a name drummer. Next, there will just be 3 guys who can make a living as a drummer. Then just 2, then just 1. Then 0. Then negative 1. LOL
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
And not to throw water on your fire but have you seen these kids now days? Like 6 year olds playing crazy good.
Don't worry, you're not throwing water on anyone's fire. Children are children. They're not working gigs, making records, building teaching businesses, or seeking out college positions.
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
Used to be you could scrape a meager living together as a decent local drummer. Then you had to be a really good local drummer. Now you have to be a name drummer. Next, there will just be 3 guys who can make a living as a drummer. Then just 2, then just 1. Then 0. Then negative 1. LOL
Hey you have to try to think positive. Don't give up just yet.
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
Don't worry, you're not throwing water on anyone's fire. Children are children. They're not working gigs, making records, building teaching businesses, or seeking out college positions.
These kids are playing stuff that is extremely hard to play to me at least note for note. They may not be working yet but they will be believe it. Making records, building teaching businesses and seeking out college positions. Tip of the hat to the new young drummers out there.
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
These kids are playing stuff that is extremely hard to play to me at least note for note. They may not be working yet but they will be believe it. Making records, building teaching businesses and seeking out college positions. Tip of the hat to the new young drummers out there.
I don't doubt that some of it is extremely hard for you! I guess I don't know what point you're making though.
 

GOOSE72

Well-known member
I don't doubt that some of it is extremely hard for you! I guess I don't know what point you're making though.
My point is they are children playing stuff that is difficult to play. You name a song you struggle with that is hard for you to play.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
Hey you have to try to think positive. Don't give up just yet.
I gave up when I was 25. The profession was a black hole THEN, and it has gotten worse since. Half the people who graduate from Juilliard aren’t even in the industry 10 years later. I imagine the same is true for Berklee, etc..
 
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