Technique vs. groove.

Seafroggys

Silver Member
It's supposed to be "CHOPS VS. GROOVE". Geez.
This, really.

I think people are looking into the original "Technique vs. Groove" too literally. Like, no shit, you have to have *some* semblance of technique to physically play the drums, have rebound, coordination between limbs, etc. The baseline to be able to play a basic groove is obvious, so I think you guys who are pointing that out are stating the obvious and is something that the original artist is probably aware of.

However, I don't believe in overplaying. As in, too many notes = overplaying. You can overplay badly, but that's different.

I like looking at Sting's solo career. His stuff could have been very successful with just basic, money-making grooves, but no....you got freaking Vinnie Colatiua on the drums, who by many people's definition is always overplaying. But he's not actually "overplaying." It sounds great. It sounds right. But its much busier than a money-beat.
 
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Deleted member 525878

Guest
Both are inseparable. I was just listening to some Chick Corea cds this afternoon with Mr. Gadd on drums. He played some technical parts that GROOVED! End of discussion for me.
 

Xstr8edgtnrdrmrX

Well-known member
This, really.

I think people are looking into the original "Technique vs. Groove" too literally. Like, no shit, you have to have *some* semblance of technique to physically play the drums, have rebound, coordination between limbs, etc. The baseline to be able to play a basic groove is obvious, so I think you guys who are pointing that out are stating the obvious and is something that the original artist is probably aware of.

However, I don't believe in overplaying. As in, too many notes = overplaying. You can overplay badly, but that's different.

I like looking at Sting's solo career. His stuff could have been very successful with just basic, money-making grooves, but no....you got freaking Vinnie Colatiua on the drums, who by many people's definition is always overplaying. But he's not actually "overplaying." It sounds great. It sounds right. But its much busier than a money-beat.
I am pretty sure Vinny made some money on those beats...and there is groove (where it is supposed to be) all over that stuff...at least up until Brand New Day.

Makes me think of the song Island of Souls (from Soul Cages)...very simple ride cymbal on 2 & 4 for the first 2 minutes or so....simple, but super groovy....what that part of the song calls for

and then 7 Days...holy crap, what a groove in 5!!
 

dmacc_2

Well-known member
Like.... Matched - vs Traditional grip, Single Bass -vs- Double Bass, 4 piece setup -vs- larger setup.... questions like these are redundant....
 
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Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
I mean, its the same the other way too. There's some technically proficient drummers out there who have stunted groove...an example I like to point out is Vinny Appice. He clearly has chops, but I always felt his groove felt a bit stilted. And some of the older DCI drummers who couldn't groove to save their life, but could run circles around the best drumset players in technique (thankfully DCI of the past 10-20 years is a lot more fluid so things groove more).
DCI?
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
I am pretty sure Vinny made some money on those beats...and there is groove (where it is supposed to be) all over that stuff...at least up until Brand New Day.

Makes me think of the song Island of Souls (from Soul Cages)...very simple ride cymbal on 2 & 4 for the first 2 minutes or so....simple, but super groovy....what that part of the song calls for

and then 7 Days...holy crap, what a groove in 5!!
Are confusing Appice with Colauta? (Cognitive Vinny Dissonance)
 

Yamaha Rider

Well-known member
The cartoon is way off -the dude should have a big cranium for technique and groove, Why is the technique so muscle bound and groove skinny? Seems biased implications that groove is wimpy, or takes little effort or has little value. Bite me artist. The drummer would be svelte with a bg cranium (like the Finnish drummer). I call bull crap on the cartoonist. He doesn’t even have a chin and look at that noodle - it wouldn’t hold a walnut. And speaking of walnuts I can’t say anything about his tiny hands cause it could be considered political LOL.
I read it as a criticism of excessive technique combined with inadequate groove.
 

C.M. Jones

Well-known member
Vinnie Appice doesn't lack groove in the least, nor are his grooves clumsy in any fashion. His beats emit a military-style urgency, a spirt of tense aggression stabilized by proficiency and precision. His work with Dio is a timekeeping clinic. Great drumming through and through.
 

Winston_Wolf

Platinum Member
I read it as a criticism of excessive technique combined with inadequate groove.
I'm sure this age-old debate exists within all instrumentalists because there's overplayers and underplayers no matter what instrument we're talking about.
The friction usually comes about because many folks that can only do one of the two often try to tear down the ones that predominately do the other.

For me that's the beauty of drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta and Carter Beauford; being able to be busy and have a deep pocket at the same time AND the wisdom to know which is right for the music they're playing.
 

Seafroggys

Silver Member
Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I have been talking about two Vinny's.

I'm not saying Vinny has "bad groove" it doesn't make me not like the songs he plays on, but he is a lot more rigid than other drummers and I feel that all those songs would be improved by another drummer. I listen to his Dio stuff, or his stuff with Black Sabbath/Heaven and Hell, and I keep thinking "Cozy Powell or Bill Ward could do better."

Again, he doesn't detract from the song, but if I listen specifically for the drumming, my mind goes to other drummers doing better.

DCI = Drum Corps International. Drum and Bugle Corps. The best of the best. They are *NOT* some digital crap, far from it.
 

KamaK

Platinum Member
The baseline to be able to play a basic groove is obvious,
Indeed. All you need to do is conjure an image of an attractive posterior bouncing up and down in your minds eye, and the rest just takes care of itself....

At least that's how I do it. I just assumed everyone else did the same thing. Right?
 

mikyok

Platinum Member
Good technique lets you play injury free for a lifetime and that's what good technique should be used for but too many people get an ego and think it's all about showing off, we've all seen em. Probably why the OP post is way more relevant to guitarists.

You can't teach groove, it's all dependent on the player. You have to have a lightbulb moment with groove. Mine came when the owner of my old drum shop had a Purdie VHS on and I was sold, good drumming is about soul and feel that's where the magic is. Playing what's needed is the most underrated skill.

Technique is the antisocial side that you work on away from the crowd, groove is the social bit that gets people shaking their asses, gets you regular gigs and lines your pockets.
 

iCe

Senior Member
I have this DVD at home and i think it's a great instructional DVD on this subject. You can learn how to groove.

 

J-W

Well-known member
Yeah. What's DCI? I'm assuming some digital crap
It may as well be from a listener's standpoint. It's like listening to several drum machines sync'd perfectly together. It's entirely mechanical; as close to robotic as it gets. It's the military academy of drumming where everyone is in lockstep. The elitism of technique, void of any soul, creativity or individualism.
The OP's graphic would be representative of DCI if both legs were amputated.......... and the right side of the brain removed.

It's a great way to develop discipline and technique, but doesn't always carry over onto the drum set, especially in a musical situation.

Technique is the antisocial side that you work on away from the crowd, groove is the social bit that gets people shaking their asses, gets you regular gigs and lines your pockets.
Very well said. (y)
 
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